| B-Girl |
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| Moderators: redbaron, MDKramer, Flyone, AZgl1500 | Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ...   |
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 03:10 pm | 101st Post |
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Thanks again, Steve. How close were the cc's of the piston tops of the 1000 to the 1200? Apparently if they are close to same for totals, then the 1200 heads had a smaller combustion chamber (as was your first observation) to make up for the larger volume of the cylinder ATDC and keep the compressions similar for regular petrol. I am assuming the 1200 would have a larger cylinder-combustion volume due to it's larger diameter. Boy this is so helpful to us guys who want to do the mod and have to tinker with what's left to get it to run right. It gives some direction as to what mods could be done in the future as well, ie supercharge, turbo or whatever.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 03:12 pm | 102nd Post |
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Stupid thought, I shouldn't ask, but could a second plug be added? Would it it be worth it. I recall seeing a lot of two cylinders with that mod done.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 03:57 pm | 103rd Post |
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SuperSkypilot wrote: CaptainMidnight85 wrote:Just a opinion, or a thought really, as I've no experience with the 1100 or 1200 heads on my 1000, but I've noticed something in the 3-head picture that SSP posted on the previous page.I think if you look at the pictures closely you'll see that the plug is in about the same location in all three heads and is probably the on the scope of this project to change. I see the locations being the same, but the angles look different of the three in the pic. It was hard to tell which direction this was going, so I was hesitant to post, but alas.. CM, ...out... 
____________________ "They're gonna make it look like suicide." Hunter S. Thompson, one day before his death. |
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 04:00 pm | 104th Post |
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joedrum wrote:thats some good connect the dots there ....let me srart off with what i already have ....i have 75 1000 cams install in a 82 1100 motor...the cams are it a 1100 head....theres some differences in the 1000 and 1100 heads but they are small....im still useing the 1100 ignition ....the bike runs so well im having trouble justifying changing to the 1000 setup ...im running 1100 carbs and they work great overall ...im so pleased that im going to do this to my 83 1100 too .... I think you misunderstood. What I meant was to just eliminate the points from the 1000 head and leave the CDI ignition from the 1100 intact. So the timing would still rely on the pulsers at the back of the motor. This is of course assuming that the pulser and vacuum advance unit from the 1100 is a bolt on swap for the '84 1200 block. I'm basically trying to get the best of all three motors. This would be using a single carb conversion kit.
____________________ P.G.R. Member ID: 88374 http://www.patriotguard.org Our Soldiers are what make us strong. Without them there would be no USA. |
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 04:45 pm | 105th Post |
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CaptainMidnight85 wrote: SuperSkypilot wrote:it could be that the angles are different, but I'm going to assume that Honda knows more about spark plug angles than I do and that they are set at the best location and angle for the head.CaptainMidnight85 wrote:Just a opinion, or a thought really, as I've no experience with the 1100 or 1200 heads on my 1000, but I've noticed something in the 3-head picture that SSP posted on the previous page.I think if you look at the pictures closely you'll see that the plug is in about the same location in all three heads and is probably the on the scope of this project to change. Steve
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 05:20 pm | 106th Post |
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...for their respective combustion chambers, ...yes. Again, just something I noticed. 
____________________ "They're gonna make it look like suicide." Hunter S. Thompson, one day before his death. |
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 07:51 pm | 107th Post |
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the differense in piston shape seems small ....but with the cc test its safe to say that the un knons are on the more clearence side thats good ...the 1100 piston is just about the same size as the 1200 and the heads are almost the same as 1000 just a small cut around the head that makes up 2 1/2ccs but valves and such like 1000 heads ...i agree with what you said but i think the window is small for any big change ....as its looking the 1000 heads is the one to make that window the smallest..... sometimes i dont read things well broke winger  Last edited on Wed Dec 15th, 2010 07:59 pm by joedrum |
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 09:16 pm | 108th Post |
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 This keeps getting more and more complicated. I wasn't happy with my compression figures so I rechecked them. I discovered that when I was setting the piston height in the block I was using the metric side of my depth gauge. As a result I came up with the wrong volume for the piston crown. With that corrected I get static compression ratio of 8.6 to one. Amazingly close to my first guess of 8.5 to 1. The next thing to check was the piston to valve clearance. That didn't go so well either. To check it I put some modeling clay on top of the piston and assembled the head onto a test block and turned it over a couple of times  if you look at the upper right side of the clay you'll see were the intake valve made contact with a piston. In the next picture you can see the shiny spot on the valve relief again indicating that the valve had an interaction with a piston top.  I haven't taken the head apart again to see if I bent that valve, but I wouldn't be surprised. This is why I like to take my time and check everything out. It's obvious now that the 76 head on a 1200 engine won't work. At least not without some further modifications. There's a lot of metal in the piston where the reliefs for the valves are so I might be able to solve the problem by machining a deeper relief in the piston top. But that would still leave me with an 8.6 to 1 compression ratio. Steve
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 09:59 pm | 109th Post |
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One thing I've heard alluded to here and referenced but not significantly appreciated I suspect is the fact that all this analysis is being done "statically". Keep in mind this is a "dynamic" application. The reduction in intake diameter and increase in flow velocity is one big piece of data referenced from the books that screams to me. Another memeber mentioned that since it's bigger it should be "better" when comparing one to the other. However in the application, when the piston reaches TDC or BDC, isn't necessarily the end of the air coming in or actually going out, far from it. The delay in the closing off of the cylinder with the grind of the cam allows air to further keep rushing in to the cylinder which is why the intake diameter was reduced, to increase the velocity of the inrushing air to cram more in there before it actually does get closed off phsically by the intake valve. With the grinding of the cam to change when the exhaust is being opened up to "atmospheric" this event can also help pull the air out of the cylinder. Keep in mind all this thing is, is one great big air pump which just happens to be getting an "assist" from combustion. And trust me I'm not trying to in any way shape or form sound patronizing to some folks who have a hell of a lot of more experience in a lot of this then me. Just trying to point out, to some anyways I suspect having these questions, that keep in mind how each of all these parts interacts with each other and not necessarily get hyper focused on one thing being "bigger" or "smaller" then another. And one other thing it gets to be a big deal with analysis of combustion flame and positioning a spark plug and "extremely" problematic when we talk about positioning it differently. But one trick you can do is "clock" the spark plugs to an intentional position for improved flame propagation in the cylinder with only minimal effort. Just an old trick I read somewhere. ;p
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 11:53 pm | 110th Post |
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dhrith wrote: One thing I've heard alluded to here and referenced but not significantly appreciated I suspect is the fact that all this analysis is being done "statically". Keep in mind this is a "dynamic" application. The reduction in intake diameter and increase in flow velocity is one big piece of data referenced from the books that screams to me. Another memeber mentioned that since it's bigger it should be "better" when comparing one to the other. However in the application, when the piston reaches TDC or BDC, isn't necessarily the end of the air coming in or actually going out, far from it. The delay in the closing off of the cylinder with the grind of the cam allows air to further keep rushing in to the cylinder which is why the intake diameter was reduced, to increase the velocity of the inrushing air to cram more in there before it actually does get closed off phsically by the intake valve. With the grinding of the cam to change when the exhaust is being opened up to "atmospheric" this event can also help pull the air out of the cylinder. Keep in mind all this thing is, is one great big air pump which just happens to be getting an "assist" from combustion. And trust me I'm not trying to in any way shape or form sound patronizing to some folks who have a hell of a lot of more experience in a lot of this then me. Just trying to point out, to some anyways I suspect having these questions, that keep in mind how each of all these parts interacts with each other and not necessarily get hyper focused on one thing being "bigger" or "smaller" then another. And one other thing it gets to be a big deal with analysis of combustion flame and positioning a spark plug and "extremely" problematic when we talk about positioning it differently. But one trick you can do is "clock" the spark plugs to an intentional position for improved flame propagation in the cylinder with only minimal effort. Just an old trick I read somewhere. ;pI understand all of that. There have been a lot of claims made by people on this site about the increases in performance that can be gained from doing this head swap. All along I have expressed my skepticism. What I'm trying to do here is get to the bottom of it. From what I can see right now, there's no way that anyone can actually be running the heads and cams from a 76 GL 1000 on a GL 1200 engine. It's worth considering that Honda didn't change the combustion chamber design just for the heck of it. It's also true that a lot of the R&D during the period of time was focusing on reducing emissions and improving fuel economy. It's obvious I'm not going to be able to avoid doing a full cam profile workup to see what the actual valve timing looks like. I think that'll probably be my next step. Steve.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16th, 2010 02:35 am | 111th Post |
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Cool beans, it wasn't directed much at you as much as others. And I didn't jist the direct intent from this post, I got the impression it was just a performance search in general, I see from the other threads now where your coming from. I don't have as much time to keep up with all the threads as I'd like. ;p
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16th, 2010 05:46 am | 112th Post |
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I started following this thread to help me bring life back into a down and out bike that had been neglected and although most of the things discussed about compression ratios and swapping heads is very interesting it has been wasted on me as I am not looking to reinvent the mouse trap just want to get this Gold Wing 1200 A back on the road and among the living. Just my two penny's. Ed
____________________ Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he's too old to fight he'll just kill you! "The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency. It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president. |
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16th, 2010 06:53 am | 113th Post |
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MajicMrEd wrote: I started following this thread to help me bring life back into a down and out bike that had been neglected and although most of the things discussed about compression ratios and swapping heads is very interesting it has been wasted on me as I am not looking to reinvent the mouse trap just want to get this Gold Wing 1200 A back on the road and among the living. Just my two penny's.Ed: This little detour will be over shortly but the thread is about building a mildly customized bike on a lowbuck budget and that's what I'm trying to do. There will be lot's to learn along the way. I hope yesterday alone saved a few people from making a mistake that would have cost them an engine. I will keep your comment in mind though. I'm mindful of the goals of the thread and have been trying to stick to them. Steve Last edited on Thu Dec 16th, 2010 06:54 am by SuperSkypilot ____________________
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16th, 2010 08:21 am | 114th Post |
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MajicMrEd wrote: I started following this thread to help me bring life back into a down and out bike that had been neglected and although most of the things discussed about compression ratios and swapping heads is very interesting it has been wasted on me as I am not looking to reinvent the mouse trap just want to get this Gold Wing 1200 A back on the road and among the living. Just my two penny's. me 2, almost scared me, but it is interesting just beyond my capabilities- i envy you the time & ability to do this & answere these questions
____________________ Travis Blu, RPSGT (sleep tech) |
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16th, 2010 12:50 pm | 115th Post |
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"B-Girl" looks to me like the graphics they used to paint on the side of the bombers and other aircraft in WWII...you know...the BIG one! Will be interesting to follow along.
____________________ Mark 1984 GL 1200 Aspencade "To live you must be willing to die" Amir Vahedi My father gets smarter everyday that he's gone. "I worried that I had no shoes until I saw a man that had no feet" |
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16th, 2010 01:23 pm | 116th Post |
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SSP, This is what many others have claimed all along, but many also claim to have it operational now. You did have a head gasket on when you modeled didn't you?
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16th, 2010 02:24 pm | 117th Post |
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well im not to put off by it ...it bad that steve might have damaged the valve maybe ....but this is all good info as steve said it wouldnt take much to mod the piston ....im still not convinced about compression figures yet ...but in no way is this stoping me from this ....it could be that the 1200 piston deck out taller than the 1000s or that the cut outs are just not cut deep enough ....if you had a 75 cam in a 1200 head it would probably still hit cause the difference is just the cut ...why would they the 1200 cams probably come way short of this movement on the 75 cams .... this is all good stuff to me to know and on to the next step .....personaly im not sure on the comppression issue but i am sure im going for it ....these kind of modds can be talk to death but the unknown are still the unknowns untill its put together and tried ....my 82 1100 with 75 cams is a known success and tool for outcome to measure with ..... heck that valve just bearly hit ...the weather sucks but im close to diving into this soon ....my shop is a little drafty right now
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16th, 2010 02:51 pm | 118th Post |
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joedrum wrote: ....these kind of modds can be talk to death but the unknown are still the unknowns untill its put together and tried... So, ...  ...is this being "talked to death" here?Patience. ...Very few builders openly discuss what they go through in their achievements, especially on a open platform like this. It's being worked-out by someone willing to share his effort IMO. Moreso than I can allow myself to do. For that, he gets a BIG 
____________________ "They're gonna make it look like suicide." Hunter S. Thompson, one day before his death. |
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16th, 2010 03:15 pm | 119th Post |
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I may be mistaken, but aren't the intake valves larger on the 1000? Maybe that's why they were hitting the piston.
____________________ First name: Dean http://dsmphd.com/ http://hearttoheartrescue.org You can listen to your fears and pay with your life, or you can pay the price of overcoming your fears and live. It's up to you. CMA Member '78 GL 1000 - Gloriana '73 Harley-Davidson Sportster - Jaina (Converting to DS) |
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16th, 2010 03:16 pm | 120th Post |
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Xtracho wrote: "B-Girl" looks to me like the graphics they used to paint on the side of the bombers and other aircraft in WWII...you know...the BIG one!That's exactly were it came from. cleaned-up, reversed and "photoshoped" some. The name was my idea but the graphic came from a B25 (I think) called California Girl. Steve
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