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RedWinger
Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 17th, 2005 04:23 am | 41st Post |
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Last edited on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 11:59 pm by RedWinger
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Gambler
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Posted: Wed Aug 17th, 2005 05:45 am | 42nd Post |
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| guys, the pickup screen has such a small mesh, no large pieces could get into the oil pump. there are some nicks in the main pump rotor, but not very bad. pics will follow.
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn  )
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Gambler
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Posted: Wed Aug 17th, 2005 02:18 pm | 43rd Post |
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Goldwinger1984 wrote: Gambler wrote: the mains plastigaged out at #1=.0025, #2&3 =.002, the rods were at .001-.0015, so I am going to reuse the bearings. Also will reuse the rings, they appear to be chrome faced top rings which usually outlast the cyclinder in cars. hopefully it works the same for bikes.  Still have crosshatch in all cylinders.
opinions welcome.
Everything seems to be within specifications and I would reuse the rings also. It is amazing how those cylinders wear so good. You probably know this already but do not clean out the ring lands if you are reusing the old rings.
Don't forget to check the oil pumps and if you can, post some pics of the oil pumps disassembled please. I'm anxious to see if any of the broken gears caused excess scoring on the oil pump vanes or housing.
Keep up the great work Gambler.
We really appreciate all the excellent and clear pics you have taken.
Vic
my latent lazyness prevents me from pulling all the rings off the pistons and cleaning the grooves, but they look pretty good and none of the rings are sticky in the grooves. the pistons did get a dip in simple green and then very hot water. they weren't very bad to begin with.
but it seems to me that making sure the oil ring groove and drain holes are open would not be a bad thing, whats your opinion on that?
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Goldwinger1984
Senior Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 17th, 2005 02:45 pm | 44th Post |
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Just check the holes with a light and if they are open just leave it. If you do happen to remove the rings to check further, make absolutely certain that all the rings go back in exactly as they came out.
Vic
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Gambler
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Posted: Wed Aug 17th, 2005 02:56 pm | 45th Post |
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| I'm not removing the rings, drain holes are open(flowed hot water fine). I think they will work fine, but it's a calculated risk I suppose.
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Goldwinger1984
Senior Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 17th, 2005 04:21 pm | 46th Post |
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Since it was hot water that touched them last a quick dip in light weight oil would keep them from rusting until you get the chance to reassemble everything. It's amazing how fast cast iron rings will start to rust if they are not covered in oil.
Vic
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A place for GL1200's to gather.
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twisty
Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 17th, 2005 05:01 pm | 47th Post |
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Gambler wrote: I'm not removing the rings, drain holes are open(flowed hot water fine). I think they will work fine, but it's a calculated risk I suppose.
Gambler, once rings are seated to a cylinder with age & wear they seldom re-seal very good unless reinstalled in the EXACT same position on the piston.. Without ring locater pins in the pistons to index the ring gap to that is almost impossible.
Twisty
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Gambler
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Posted: Thu Aug 18th, 2005 12:45 am | 48th Post |
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twisty wrote: Gambler wrote: I'm not removing the rings, drain holes are open(flowed hot water fine). I think they will work fine, but it's a calculated risk I suppose.
Gambler, once rings are seated to a cylinder with age & wear they seldom re-seal very good unless reinstalled in the EXACT same position on the piston.. Without ring locater pins in the pistons to index the ring gap to that is almost impossible.
Twisty
shizzle .
____________________
87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Goldwinger1984
Senior Guru
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Posted: Thu Aug 18th, 2005 01:25 am | 49th Post |
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Gambler, piston rings actually rotate in the cylinder when the engine is running so as long as you did not remove the rings from the piston you can get away with reusing them. They may take a little while to find home again but it can be done. The engine may run hotter at first and you might see some smoke out the exhaust also, but, this may clear up in a few hundred miles or so.
If it was my own engine, I would check the bores for taper and if within limits simply deglaze the cylinders with a fine stoned hone (400 grit) and install a new set of the correct size rings on the fresh crosshatch pattern. I would do this because rings lose their elasticity over time and lose even more of it with heat. Fresh rings may help boost compression if you do the cylinder wall finish correctly.
Vic
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A place for GL1200's to gather.
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Gambler
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Posted: Thu Aug 18th, 2005 05:02 am | 50th Post |
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Goldwinger1984 wrote: Gambler, piston rings actually rotate in the cylinder when the engine is running so as long as you did not remove the rings from the piston you can get away with reusing them. They may take a little while to find home again but it can be done. The engine may run hotter at first and you might see some smoke out the exhaust also, but, this may clear up in a few hundred miles or so.
If it was my own engine, I would check the bores for taper and if within limits simply deglaze the cylinders with a fine stoned hone (400 grit) and install a new set of the correct size rings on the fresh crosshatch pattern. I would do this because rings lose their elasticity over time and lose even more of it with heat. Fresh rings may help boost compression if you do the cylinder wall finish correctly.
Vic
thats what I've always believed, but when I tear an engine down, I always replace the rings and bearings. this has not been an issue for me and I've rebuilt many engines(bike and car).
however this project is different, money is no object(as in since I have no money, it's not an object). so the cheaper I can do this the better. I'm willing to reuse the parts and see if they work.
I talked to a couple of friends of mine, both have experiance with porshe and vw. both have said when doing head repair on aircooled engines they have pulled the jugs to replace the base/cylinder gasket and reused the rings many times with no problems.
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Renegade
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Posted: Thu Aug 18th, 2005 10:13 am | 51st Post |
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I have used the original bearings also, many times provided they are well within specs, including the rod & crank journals.. However, never had the will to re-use the rings because they need to seat themselves in the cylinders.. Burnishing the cylinder walls allows new rinigs to seat properly... If you re-install the old rings, and they are not in the exact same position they were when removed, it's possible they will lose their mating surfaces and leak...
Just my opinion and my way of doing engine rebuilds.
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twisty
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Posted: Thu Aug 18th, 2005 10:36 am | 52nd Post |
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Renegade wrote: I have used the original bearings also, many times provided they are well within specs, including the rod & crank journals.. However, never had the will to re-use the rings because they need to seat themselves in the cylinders.. Burnishing the cylinder walls allows new rinigs to seat properly... If you re-install the old rings, and they are not in the exact same position they were when removed, it's possible they will lose their mating surfaces and leak...
Just my opinion and my way of doing engine rebuilds.
Renegade, I agree with you on the rings.. Cylinders wear elliptical, therefore so do the rings. Once that happens the the rings no longer seal correctly if not matched to the original position. While it's true new rings can rotate or migrate slightly until seated, once worn in & seated that no longer takes place unless severe ring wear is present or the ring side gap is excessive. I have seen Harley jugs pulled off & placed back on with no apparent problems but that was on low mileage bikes & on those the rings position are usually not disturbed by just sliding the jugs off & on.. Would I personally re-use a set of well used rings? Not if I could help it.
Twisty
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Goldwinger1984
Senior Guru
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Posted: Thu Aug 18th, 2005 12:09 pm | 53rd Post |
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Gambler wrote: Goldwinger1984 wrote: Gambler, piston rings actually rotate in the cylinder when the engine is running so as long as you did not remove the rings from the piston you can get away with reusing them. They may take a little while to find home again but it can be done. The engine may run hotter at first and you might see some smoke out the exhaust also, but, this may clear up in a few hundred miles or so.
If it was my own engine, I would check the bores for taper and if within limits simply deglaze the cylinders with a fine stoned hone (400 grit) and install a new set of the correct size rings on the fresh crosshatch pattern. I would do this because rings lose their elasticity over time and lose even more of it with heat. Fresh rings may help boost compression if you do the cylinder wall finish correctly.
Vic
thats what I've always believed, but when I tear an engine down, I always replace the rings and bearings. this has not been an issue for me and I've rebuilt many engines(bike and car).
however this project is different, money is no object(as in since I have no money, it's not an object). so the cheaper I can do this the better. I'm willing to reuse the parts and see if they work.
I talked to a couple of friends of mine, both have experiance with porshe and vw. both have said when doing head repair on aircooled engines they have pulled the jugs to replace the base/cylinder gasket and reused the rings many times with no problems.
Since your name is Gambler and money is not an object you could take a chance on reusing the rings and the outcome may be perfect or least have a 50/50 chance of working allright.
If you did opt for new rings you'd be shocked at the price of rings for a Gold Wing, it's almost like Honda believes that the are really made of gold and apparently they hide them really good because because it's not easy to find them either.
I'd like to hear the results if you did decide to reuse the old rings.
Vic
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A place for GL1200's to gather.
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Gambler
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 12:54 am | 54th Post |
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still on the fence about the rings. oil pump pics will be up soon. trans came today so I will be looking at that after I get home from the night job, hope the parts I need fit. it's off an 86.
thanks everybody for your opinions.
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Goldwinger1984
Senior Guru
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 07:03 am | 55th Post |
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You're very welcome Gambler. Thanks for taking the time to share the pictorial with us. It's great to have the in depth photos on the site.
Hope the parts work out OK and everything goes back together well for you.
Vic
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http://www.gl1200goldwings.com/
A place for GL1200's to gather.
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twisty
Guru
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 01:16 pm | 56th Post |
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Gambler wrote: still on the fence about the rings. oil pump pics will be up soon. trans came today so I will be looking at that after I get home from the night job, hope the parts I need fit. it's off an 86.
thanks everybody for your opinions.
Gambler, "bike bandit" has standard rings for about $56.00 a set (I presume that is per piston set but there price sheet doesn't say that)..
If you are going to try re-using your original rings try removing the top ring (careful now) on one piston & seeing if you can find a small wear spot where the ring end gap was operating. If you can determine that, pull the other rings & use a marking pen or Sharpie marker & mark all the ring end gap locations on the pistons. That will at least allow you to get the rings back where they were running before teardown.
Twisty
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Goldwinger1984
Senior Guru
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 01:48 pm | 57th Post |
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twisty wrote: Gambler wrote: still on the fence about the rings. oil pump pics will be up soon. trans came today so I will be looking at that after I get home from the night job, hope the parts I need fit. it's off an 86.
thanks everybody for your opinions.
Gambler, "bike bandit" has standard rings for about $56.00 a set (I presume that is per piston set but there price sheet doesn't say that)..
If you are going to try re-using your original rings try removing the top ring (careful now) on one piston & seeing if you can find a small wear spot where the ring end gap was operating. If you can determine that, pull the other rings & use a marking pen or Sharpie marker & mark all the ring end gap locations on the pistons. That will at least allow you to get the rings back where they were running before teardown.
Twisty
Twisty, this is where it all gets stupid when tearing down a Wing engine. $224.00 for a set of rings, then you need a full gasket set and on top of that you should do a valve job and replace any other worn parts that require attention. I've seen some guys purchase over $700. worth of parts to freshen up their Wing engines and ultimately the engines did not run much better than a good condition used engine that cost $500.00 complete.
It's such a tough call on this fine line between rebuilding or replacing a Wing engine when it goes bad. Even if you do the work yourself it's still an expensive proposition and it would be outlandish to have a Honda dealer rebuild the engine.
The only reason I mention this is to let others out here know how important it is to take care of the engine in their Wings. Change the oil, don't overheat the engine, use good quality oil and air filters and most importantly don't beat on them or else you can end up with gears like Gambler found in his.
Vic
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A place for GL1200's to gather.
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Gambler
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 03:21 pm | 58th Post |
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| scavenge oil pump Attachment: goldwing rebuild 078 (Small).jpg (Downloaded 159 times)
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Gambler
Guru
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 03:22 pm | 59th Post |
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| gears Attachment: goldwing rebuild 079 (Small).jpg (Downloaded 153 times)
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Gambler
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 03:23 pm | 60th Post |
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| main pump Attachment: goldwing rebuild 073 (Small).jpg (Downloaded 156 times)
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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