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Gambler
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 03:24 pm | 61st Post |
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| gears Attachment: goldwing rebuild 069 (Small).jpg (Downloaded 167 times)
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn  )
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Gambler
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 03:25 pm | 62nd Post |
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| another Attachment: goldwing rebuild 070 (Small).jpg (Downloaded 156 times)
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Gambler
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 03:26 pm | 63rd Post |
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| main cover Attachment: goldwing rebuild 072 (Small).jpg (Downloaded 162 times) Last edited on Fri Aug 19th, 2005 03:27 pm by Gambler
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Gambler
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 03:30 pm | 64th Post |
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I hope those are viewable. oh, the engine had good oil pressure.
on the rings, lets not forget that ring tension isn't what seals the compression in the bore, it's the gas pressure pushing against the inner part of the ring. so I think I will reuse the rings and not worry about it. if it smokes or has low compression, I will pull it and redo it.
but I still like to hear what other people have to say, and this how info gets shared. so thanks to everybody who has made comments.
Last edited on Fri Aug 19th, 2005 03:31 pm by Gambler
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Oregonwinger
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 03:56 pm | 65th Post |
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I've re-used the rings many a time. Just pull rings, check end gap in bore, and if within specs, go for it. The gas behind ring is true, to a point. Not so true on second ring, or oil ring. If the bore is rippled/out of round, not even new rings will help much. Has it been "real" hot? That'll do it, for sure. Running engine hard, when cold, doesn't help, either. Also helps to do a crankcase pressure test, before teardown. You could rent a pressure test kit at your local, "friendly" Cat dealer.  I've found more worn bearings, than worn rings. These bearings don't seem to hold up too well. Seems to me like a pre-lube pump would be the cat's meow. Wondering if some rotory fuel pump would suck the oil out of crankcase, and pre-lube crank. They're the ticket on trucks, and also can lube the turbo + cool the turbo, on shutdown. Anybody know of a elec. fuel pump, up to the task? Only have to run briefly.
____________________
Bob Anderson
http://webpages.charter.net/catmek/andysjoint.html
RollaHome camper
2006 Nav, Cabernet Red
2 Schwinn Varsitys
For Sale 90 SE engine; perfect at 41k 600.00
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Oregonwinger
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 04:02 pm | 66th Post |
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| I remember when a gal bought a new 66 Chev, forget which model, think it was a 283. It always started hard, and smoked a lot, got worse as it warmed up. Dealer said "just needs to be broke in" Well after a few hundred miles, it was so bad, they decided to do a little investigating. Believe this, or not. It had no rings on the pistons!!! Yet it would run. Wonder it didn't blow the pan off. I saw that happen once. Rings were so bad, the crankcase loaded up with fuel, and combustion flamefront scooted past rings, everything being just right, BAMMMMMM. Quite a sight, and messy. An old Cornbinder, if I remember right.
____________________
Bob Anderson
http://webpages.charter.net/catmek/andysjoint.html
RollaHome camper
2006 Nav, Cabernet Red
2 Schwinn Varsitys
For Sale 90 SE engine; perfect at 41k 600.00
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Oregonwinger
Guru
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 04:07 pm | 67th Post |
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| Have a good engine repair shop, check those bores, a very light application with a precision hone, (not a glaze breaker) should make a huge difference, and indicate the true condition of the bores. Remember, very light!!!! Very, very light!!! Just to tell the picture.
____________________
Bob Anderson
http://webpages.charter.net/catmek/andysjoint.html
RollaHome camper
2006 Nav, Cabernet Red
2 Schwinn Varsitys
For Sale 90 SE engine; perfect at 41k 600.00
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twisty
Guru
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 04:54 pm | 68th Post |
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Oregonwinger wrote: I've found more worn bearings, than worn rings. These bearings don't seem to hold up too well. Seems to me like a pre-lube pump would be the cat's meow.
Oregonwinger, that's pretty normal on a motorcycle as they tend to sit for extended periods for storage or between usages & the oil protection isn't there for start-up.. You get metal to metal for a few seconds.. Any of the good anti wear diesel oils or high phosphorus oils go a long way towards preventing that as they coat the crankshaft journals & help prevent start-up bearing wear.
Twisty
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Goldwinger1984
Senior Guru
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 06:10 pm | 69th Post |
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Gambler wrote: I hope those are viewable. oh, the engine had good oil pressure.
on the rings, lets not forget that ring tension isn't what seals the compression in the bore, it's the gas pressure pushing against the inner part of the ring. so I think I will reuse the rings and not worry about it. if it smokes or has low compression, I will pull it and redo it.
but I still like to hear what other people have to say, and this how info gets shared. so thanks to everybody who has made comments.
All the pics look great Gambler and from what I see everything looks to be in excellent condition.
You're right on about the rings using the expanding gases to seal, but, weak rings will allow oil seepage into the combustion chamber and cause smoke.
On the next 1200 I pull apart I want to look into locating some pistons and rings from some car that would have the same centers and configuration that could be used on the 1200. This would help to reduce rebuild costs on highly worn engines and will also allow for varying the compression ratio to suit a turbo or supercharger, or even more impotant, for better fuel economy. I can honestly see these 4 cylinder Wings being on the road for many years to come so it may be a worthwhile venture to determine alternative parts sources rather than Honda.
Anyway, enough daydreaming for now.
Keep up the great posts Gambler and I can't wait to se the post that tells us you fired the engine up after reassembly.
Vic
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A place for GL1200's to gather.
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Goldwinger1984
Senior Guru
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 06:22 pm | 70th Post |
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Oregonwinger wrote: I remember when a gal bought a new 66 Chev, forget which model, think it was a 283. It always started hard, and smoked a lot, got worse as it warmed up. Dealer said "just needs to be broke in" Well after a few hundred miles, it was so bad, they decided to do a little investigating. Believe this, or not. It had no rings on the pistons!!! Yet it would run. Wonder it didn't blow the pan off. I saw that happen once. Rings were so bad, the crankcase loaded up with fuel, and combustion flamefront scooted past rings, everything being just right, BAMMMMMM. Quite a sight, and messy. An old Cornbinder, if I remember right.
I've seen the aftermath of the compression blowing and igniting past the piston and into the crankcase once Bob. Incredible damage too; swollen oil pan, twisted timing and valve covers and all the seals and gaskets below the pistons blew completely out of position. Just like a stick of dynamite went off in the crankcase. It was my Dad's 1963 Dodge 313 C.I., the one with the polysherical combustion chambers, most people called them 318's. What a mess to rebuild that thing. The incident was not caused by the rings, it was caused by my sister overheatin the engine so bad that it holed a piston, but, the effect could be the same if the rings were missing.
Vic
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A place for GL1200's to gather.
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Oregonwinger
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 06:25 pm | 71st Post |
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| Must have been a "Friday, or Monday AM" engine LOL. Vic, I'm taking off in a few mins, till later. I'll try calling you this afternoon. Let me know a proper time to call, your time.
____________________
Bob Anderson
http://webpages.charter.net/catmek/andysjoint.html
RollaHome camper
2006 Nav, Cabernet Red
2 Schwinn Varsitys
For Sale 90 SE engine; perfect at 41k 600.00
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twisty
Guru
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 06:50 pm | 72nd Post |
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Goldwinger1984 wrote:
I've seen the aftermath of the compression blowing and igniting past the piston and into the crankcase once Bob. Incredible damage too; swollen oil pan, twisted timing and valve covers and all the seals and gaskets below the pistons blew completely out of position. Just like a stick of dynamite went off in the crankcase. It was my Dad's 1963 Dodge 313 C.I., the one with the polysherical combustion chambers, most people called them 318's. What a mess to rebuild that thing. The incident was not caused by the rings, it was caused by my sister overheatin the engine so bad that it holed a piston, but, the effect could be the same if the rings were missing.
Vic
Vic, that 313 V8 your dad had was a bored out 303. Both had the 3.31" long stroke, but the 313 was a 3.875" bore compared to s 3.81" bore of the 303 ( I had one myself)
That 313 was the standard Dodge V8 in 1963 on your side of the border but was an option in the US (I know not why).. That was a good engine but was heavy..
Twisty
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Goldwinger1984
Senior Guru
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 07:14 pm | 73rd Post |
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Twisty, my Dad actually measured and calculated the bore and stroke, did the math and came up with 313 cubic inches on that particular engine. I distinctly remember him feeling ripped off about those 5 cubic inches that were missing. LOL I was right beside him when he came up with those figures and I'm sure that if he had found a lawyer willing to take Chrysler to court over those 5 missing cubic inches that he would have. The dealership where he had purchased this car told him that the engine was a 318, but, what do salespeople know about technical stuff anyway. If memory serves correctly I believe that the MOTOR REPAIR MANUAL even printed this engine as a Canadian 318. You are correct that these engines were very heavy, great light truck engines, but the later wedge 318's were much lighter and more powerful.
Kind of fun to reminisce about the old days with my Dad. Sadly, I lost him to a car accident when I was only 21, but, he started me off at 6 years old (before that I was only allowed to wash greasy engine parts in gasoline LOL) by helping him to rebuild the engine in a 1959 Edsel Corsair, remember the push button shifter in the steering wheel center?
He let me tap the new pistons and rings into place and even let me torque the connecting rods while he did the mains. What a rush when he told me to take the key and start the engine after it was installed and hooked up except for the exhaust pipes. When I turned the key the engine caught and came to life then the exhaust roared and filled my veins with adrenalin and gasoline. I've been hooked ever since. I get excited just thinking about it and through the years till my Dad passed he helped me on many other high performance engine projects. He helped me do up a 68 Firebird with a Chevy 454 that would run 10.98 ET.s all day on street tires. I could easily lift the front end off the ground at least 3 feet on this caburetted black beauty. He was a professional tool and die journeyman so anything that could be built and machined to make a car better was done in the large shop he worked at for many years. Man, I sure miss him.
Vic
Last edited on Fri Aug 19th, 2005 07:22 pm by Goldwinger1984
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A place for GL1200's to gather.
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avnsteve
Active Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 19th, 2005 11:33 pm | 74th Post |
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Man, I sure miss him.
I know exactly how you feel Vic. There are so very few people that can affect us in life like your father. It's a good feeling to remember him.
____________________
84 1200A
If I can't find a way, I'll make one!
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Gambler
Guru
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Posted: Sat Aug 20th, 2005 12:14 am | 75th Post |
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Goldwinger1984 wrote: Gambler wrote: I hope those are viewable. oh, the engine had good oil pressure.
on the rings, lets not forget that ring tension isn't what seals the compression in the bore, it's the gas pressure pushing against the inner part of the ring. so I think I will reuse the rings and not worry about it. if it smokes or has low compression, I will pull it and redo it.
but I still like to hear what other people have to say, and this how info gets shared. so thanks to everybody who has made comments.
All the pics look great Gambler and from what I see everything looks to be in excellent condition.
You're right on about the rings using the expanding gases to seal, but, weak rings will allow oil seepage into the combustion chamber and cause smoke.
On the next 1200 I pull apart I want to look into locating some pistons and rings from some car that would have the same centers and configuration that could be used on the 1200. This would help to reduce rebuild costs on highly worn engines and will also allow for varying the compression ratio to suit a turbo or supercharger, or even more impotant, for better fuel economy. I can honestly see these 4 cylinder Wings being on the road for many years to come so it may be a worthwhile venture to determine alternative parts sources rather than Honda.
Anyway, enough daydreaming for now.
Keep up the great posts Gambler and I can't wait to se the post that tells us you fired the engine up after reassembly.
Vic
very few cars have pistons that small. geo metro comes to mind. and honda had a 1.3l engine didn't they? maybe I will take some measurements and post them up so someone could start doing some research on that.
____________________
87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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twisty
Guru
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Posted: Sat Aug 20th, 2005 12:26 am | 76th Post |
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Gambler wrote:
very few cars have pistons that small. geo metro comes to mind. and honda had a 1.3l engine didn't they? maybe I will take some measurements and post them up so someone could start doing some research on that.
Gambler, I buy a lot of piston rings from Otto's for the old tractors & hit & miss engines I work on.. They have most sizes & what they don't have they will make.. Problem is; a lot of those custom rings are iron or soft alloy so probably wouldn't be suited for the high RPM Wing.. Even some car/truck piston rings might not be suited for the lean burn high sustained RPM of the Wings.. Probably should match ring type as well as size..
Twisty
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Gambler
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Posted: Sat Aug 20th, 2005 01:08 am | 77th Post |
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twisty wrote: Gambler wrote:
very few cars have pistons that small. geo metro comes to mind. and honda had a 1.3l engine didn't they? maybe I will take some measurements and post them up so someone could start doing some research on that.
Gambler, I buy a lot of piston rings from Otto's for the old tractors & hit & miss engines I work on.. They have most sizes & what they don't have they will make.. Problem is; a lot of those custom rings are iron or soft alloy so probably wouldn't be suited for the high RPM Wing.. Even some car/truck piston rings might not be suited for the lean burn high sustained RPM of the Wings.. Probably should match ring type as well as size..
Twisty
still, some of the smaller engines have a higher redline and operate at higher temps than the 'wing.
____________________
87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Gambler
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Posted: Sat Aug 20th, 2005 01:08 am | 78th Post |
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| cylinders(hard to get a good shot of them) Attachment: goldwing rebuild 080 (Small).jpg (Downloaded 149 times)
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Gambler
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Posted: Sat Aug 20th, 2005 01:09 am | 79th Post |
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| another, crosshatch still very visible Attachment: goldwing rebuild 086 (Small).jpg (Downloaded 149 times)
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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Gambler
Guru
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Posted: Sat Aug 20th, 2005 01:10 am | 80th Post |
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| and Attachment: goldwing rebuild 085 (Small).jpg (Downloaded 151 times)
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87 GL1200 Interstate(reborn )
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