| 3 yellow wire question | Rate Topic |
| Moderated by: redbaron, MDKramer, Flyone, AZgl1500 | Page:   1 2 |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 7th, 2005 02:39 am | 21st Post |
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ccsailor wrote: you seem to be supporting my theory if you look at your link it goes pink blue black and repeats all the way around SO in theory you SHOULD hook up in order right??????????????? then twistys "pulsed"dc prf would be less (which is good) Neil, the attached is a 3 phase automotive type alternator (it shows a Wye wired stator & I believe the Honda is a Delta wired but it really makes no difference to the rectification of the output).. The wire schematic is a very basic connection & rectifier with no regulation shown.. As you can see what 3 phase wire goes where has no effect on the total output as the diodes split it & add the ground at that point. Twisty  Last edited on Wed Sep 7th, 2005 06:49 pm by twisty ____________________ Only a motorcyclist knows why a dog rides with his head out the window! |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 7th, 2005 02:40 am | 22nd Post |
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I know nothing about "Electricty", I still amazed that when I plug my "TV" in a picture comes through that little wire!!! 
____________________ Against the Wind ! "Patriot Guard Rider"/Nevada GL 1100 Valkyrie "Fat Lady" |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 7th, 2005 02:45 am | 23rd Post |
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I'm with TWISTY on this one.  IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. 
____________________ Chris & April Sanders |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 7th, 2005 02:50 am | 24th Post |
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That "Twisty" pretty smart for a "Migrant Potato Picker" ! Not that they are not smart, mind you?!
____________________ Against the Wind ! "Patriot Guard Rider"/Nevada GL 1100 Valkyrie "Fat Lady" |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 7th, 2005 03:06 am | 25th Post |
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OK I give up it is really the way it is hooked up to the regulator and the design of regulator that controls this. IF Honda regs are wired like your diagram then you are right It does not matter which wire goes where BUT when I get bored this winter I am going to hook up a digital meter to the reg output and shift A_B_C around and see if there is any difference (easy for me to do as I installed a heavy duty connector to replace the infamous yellow plug) and see if there is any voltage difference look for future posts Neil
____________________ 08 Navi Rest not! Life is sweeping by; go and dare before you die." - Goethe Wide acceptance of an idea is NOT proof of its validity Dan Brown 2009 Loud Pipes Just cover up poor riding skills!!!!! |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 8th, 2005 11:38 pm | 26th Post |
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A 3 phase alternator can be wired in any manner as long as the wires are not open or shorted. The alternator can be delta wound or Y wound and it still does not matter. There are open wired alternators, but they are used in other applications. The delta or triangle configuration makes it difficult to have a common connection point whereas the Y connection allows the common connection at the centre of the Y. If the out put is about 50 VAC, that reading is from A-B, B-A, B-C, C-B, A-C. The wires are usually labled ABC, clockwise inside the windings. Since there are only 3 wires, they could also be wired in Delta, as in an equalateral triangle. In this case you would still have 3 sets of windings being hooked up internally from the end of one set to the beginning of the next through the winding to the end of that set then to the beginning. Something as if all were in series. The Y set up is all in parallel, but they are electrically displaced at 120 degrees. So in reality they show up as a factor of Root 3 or 1.73 x that of a single phase set up. Three phase alternators are cheap to build, run very well and produce 173% of a single phase unitof apparent equal value. Now since it is a 3 phase unit it makes no difference to a regulator as to how they are wired. But if you were to hook up say a 50 VAC 3 phase motor to the alternator the motor would rotate clockwise or counter clockwise depending on how it was wired from the alternator. This is a field effect change in rotation. So in a nutshell: The DC system built into the bike, car, truck using an AC 3 phase alternator could care less as to how the feeds A, B, C come to the regulator and current control devices. As stated earlier the AC is rectified by a full wave bridge circuit and this converts the AC to DC. Since the regulator is not 100% efficient there will be losses. That is why the AC alternator runs at about 50VAC, so by the time the losses are used up in heat etc, the convertion to DC is at about 15 VDC since maximum DC voltage on a wet Lead Acid battery requires about 15 VDC to chrge the chemical tank (battery). But throw in bad connections as the molded plastic 3 wire hook up and then dirty connections at the regulator or any where on the bike that draws current you now have heat. More heat more failures simply because the original system can handle about 300 Watts and with all the dirt, lousy connections you need 500 watts to do the work of 300 watts. Over time the heat cool cycle and the dirt cause headaches and troubles. So keep all connections clean. Also take note that in theory the alternator is not supposed to work with the DC fields removed. Some DC fields are applied by the battery, some use permanent magnets. In fact most older alternators will continue to work because of residual magnetism built up over time within the ferrous components surrounding the alternator. And if the alternator is using a permanent magnet, these devices cannot withstand vibration or getting banged about. So go ahead and hook up the 3 wires, but if it really upsets your apple cart label them M1-M2-M3 from the alternator and T1-T2-T3 going away from the alternator to the rest of the electrical system and solder M1 to T1, M2 to T2 and M3 to T3, or use any designation that is condusive to you. I would like to comment on dielectric grease. I have said it before and I will say it again, if used improperly this insulating grease will cause you problems. Incorrect use is to use the grease and then connect the wires. This could in fact put insulation between the connections. The trouble with dielectric grease or any grease is it needs to be completely removed when doing maintenance, voltage checks. So why not clean the wires and connections until they are shiny and spotless, make the connections and then apply duxseal. Or apply nothing and maintain the electrical system as you would the rest of the bike. 12 VDC is a low power voltage and all connections need to be clean, clean, clean. Thankyou!
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| Posted: Thu Sep 8th, 2005 11:46 pm | 27th Post |
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ARKnap, Thanks for the "Novel", I'm on chapter 3 but need to rest for now, gonna take an "Arknap", lol !!!!  Last edited on Thu Sep 8th, 2005 11:47 pm by wingdawg101 ____________________ Against the Wind ! "Patriot Guard Rider"/Nevada GL 1100 Valkyrie "Fat Lady" |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 9th, 2005 04:10 am | 28th Post |
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It really doesn't make any difference. If you want to confuse yourself you could reverse the rotation of the rotor in the stator and the output would be just the same as running the other way as far as the DC output is concerned. The sequence of phase from the coils would reverse, and the AC phases would reverse but since the AC is rectified before being applied to anything it makes no difference. In the case of a three phase motor reversing the phase would reverse the motor and if you just think of the AC output of the bike's stator before being rectified it does the same but you wouldn't notice since the AC is not used directly.
____________________ If you can't ride, fly or sail it, why bother? 2001 Goldwing 1800 2004 Silverwing 600 Paul W. |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 9th, 2005 05:14 am | 29th Post |
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Not being mechanically inclined now I'm worried. After reading all of this I think that I know (learned) something. Earlier this week I privately mailed Chris from Witchita re Stator problems. He was helpful. While doing routine maintenance I came across the devilish three yellow wires and noted that the connector had melted somewhat and that one of the male units was just about to disconnect. There was significant discoloration in the connector. I took all wires out, cleaned, striped and inserted new male and female components because the dealer told me that connectors were not sold separately. Fired up and everything has been running great. This evening I noticed that the Instrument Cluster seemed a bit darker than usual. I also noticed that when I put the brakes on, the light in the Cluster faded even more. In '76 I owned a Ford pickup and when the lights faded with the simultaneous application of brakes that meant that it was new regulator time. Question: Is there a connection between the three yellow wires; the dim cluster light; and the application of brakes?
____________________ Jim D. 1993 GoldWing GL 1500 Aspencade* I've never had a bad day on a GoldWing. There were a few wet one's but ... (*3rd one) |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 9th, 2005 10:41 am | 30th Post |
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BlueNose wrote: Not being mechanically inclined now I'm worried. After reading all of this I think that I know (learned) something. BlueNose, you ask.. Quite possibly, it really depends on what motorcycle you are talking about. I presume with the 3 yellow wires your are talking about an early GoldWing? If so, depending on the year & model you have your charging system could be as small as 300 Watts. That is barely adequate to keep the battery charged, headlight on, brake lights on & the cooling fan running. To make things worse those early Wings with that perment magnet rotor charging system don't charge at engine idle. So, you could be normal (if everything is running at the same time & the engine is idling),, or you cold have a low or sulfated battery (check the water level in the battery),, or your engine idle speed could be to the low side of specs (try raising the engine idle speed),, or you could have a high resistance in your charging system wiring,, or you could have some damage in one or more legs of your generator. OR, there could be extra lights or accessories on your bike. Knowing what bike you are working with would help us to help you determine IF you even have a problem. You really should run some output tests on your generator, then pull your battery out & have it load tested at your local bike or battery shop. _______________ Testing your stator ( assumes a 4 cylinder GoldWing) It probably wouldn't hurt to start with a basic stator test to begin with... --------To do that-------- You will need a small DVOM voltmeter, a digital is best but an analog will work if you are good with it.. The connectors for the stator tests can be accessed form the front of the battery area by pulling the L/H battery side cover off.. The battery doesn't have to be fully charged but should be good enough to start the engine a few times.. Once the battery area cover is removed- you will find three yellow wires running just in front of the battery,, if still original, there will be a 3 wire plug in those 3 yellow wires,, if the wires have been hard connected there will be some sort of tape or solder joint in the 3 yellow wires.. You will need to either disconnect the 3 wire plastic plug, or use side cutters & cut the three yellow wires (they must be disconnected from the front) . You can cut them all at once as their re-connection order doesn't matter. That connector MUST BE disconnected (or the yellow wires cut) or you won't be able to get a good meaningful test & get accurate readings. You will need to be sure the terminals inside the connector are clean, (or the yellow wires are cut back to good clean wire) to get solid usable test data).. The 3 yellow wires coming out of the rear of the engine need to be lettered or numbered (either 1,2,3, or A,B,C) so you can tell them apart during the testing.. To run the test, get your voltmeter set on the 100 volt AC (Alternating Current) scale & the probes hooked up & where you can access them easily.. Start the engine & warm it up a little,, then run the engine at 3000-4000 RPM's. With the engine running at close to 4000 RPM's place the voltmeter probes across the 3 yellow wires making sure you test all the combinations (A to B,, B to C,, C to A.. If your stator is in good shape you should show 50+ volts A/C across all the legs (A to B,, B to C,, C to A.. The voltage should be fairly close to the same on all 3 legs also.. If you have good voltage, your stator is probably good-to-go yet.. If you have an ohmmeter function on your voltmeter you can also do a basic resistance test.. Start by placing your meter on the X1 scale or X10 scale analog (or the ohm or K scale on a modern meter).. When taking the readings be sure of what scale you are reading on as even a good stator will show a slight resistance to ground on the M scale or even the higher end of the K scale.. Measure from each of the yellow wires to a good CLEAN ground, you should show close to infinite (open) with no short to ground in any of the yellow wires coming from the engine side. Don't use your fingers to hold the bare probe ends to the wires or that alone will show resistance.. Then measure between yellow wires A to B,, B to C,, & C to A,, the resistance should be between 1 to 2 ohms (depending on the stator temperature & amount of oil soaked into the windings on any of the 3 legs & close to the same on all 3 legs.. If you have the production plug in the 3 yellow wires you really should cut that plug out and crimp on splice clips, then solder the three yellow wires to the front 3 yellow wires, cover each wire soldered connection individually with heat shrink tubing.. Any questions just post back.. Twisty
____________________ Only a motorcyclist knows why a dog rides with his head out the window! |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 9th, 2005 11:00 pm | 31st Post |
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Hey Twisty, he has an 84 Aspencade so the procedures you outlined will work for him. Last edited on Fri Sep 9th, 2005 11:01 pm by Patch ____________________ Chris & April Sanders |
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| Posted: Sat Sep 10th, 2005 01:17 am | 32nd Post |
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Thank you to Chris for passing along my particulars and to Twisty for the in depth guidance. Just to augment the details: The battery is in good shape but I am unable to accurately determine the RPM because I have been losing segments from the digital display in the Instument Cluster. There are no extra lights beyond what was stock and I have no extra accessories. Thanks again.
____________________ Jim D. 1993 GoldWing GL 1500 Aspencade* I've never had a bad day on a GoldWing. There were a few wet one's but ... (*3rd one) |
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