| Single Carb Conversions for 4 Cylinder Goldwings |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 12:54 am | 41st Post |
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I have my eye on a '78 wing that's been sitting for 10 years. So no doubt it will need carb work. That conversion looks to be just what I want. As long as the fuel mixture is sufficient and in the supply needed for proper operation, as well as being simpler to repair if needed, Whats not to like?.,,
____________________ Bikes Ive owned, '69 Norton,'48 Harley panhead, '71 Bsa, '76 gl1000,'93 Harley ultra,'03 Harley ultra,'05 Sportster, '82 GW 1100.'96 Police road king very used. "I tried thinking once, but nothing happened" .,,, |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 12:30 pm | 42nd Post |
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The hardest part of the install is removing the four single barrel stock carbs. Disconnect the throttle cable and choke cable at the carb. You will reuse the throttle cable. Remove the faux tank and tool tray. Disconnect the clamps at each intake manifold. I removed the left intake manifolds from the engine and slid the carb setup out the left side. I believe you might have to remove the air cleaner as well. Sliding the carbs out the left side was the tricky part but you will manage with a little trial and error. Don't forget to buy new "o"ring seals for the intakes. The new single barrel carb and manifold slip into the space with ease; all kinds of room to position and attach everything. The throttle cable is attached to a bracket on the new manifold and then to the carb. The carb has a return spring on it so the return part of the throttle cable isn't used. The carb also has an electric choke so the choke cable isn't used either. Run an electric wire from the accesory positive attach point to the choke and a ground wire to the base plate on the carb. The rubber boots on the manifold isolates the unit so it has to be grounded for the choke to work. I bought an Empi chrome air filter assembly from a local shop that specializes in VWs. They are readily available at these kinds of shops and thru outlets like Warshaski etc. It sets on top of the carb between the frame like it was meant to be there all along and the tray sits on top. Start the engine and go ride. You might have to adjust the idle screw. But the adjustments are easy and everything is so easy to get to. This entire process shouldn't take over an hour, even if you have never done anything like this before. My 1100 ran flawlessly and so does LD's bikes. He rides his in all kinds of weather and temperatures and even races it on occasion and never has a problem. It is the easiest mod I have ever done on a bike, or anything for that matter, and is as reliable as mother Honda. An added benefit is that the carbs are readily available and rebuild kits cost less than $20.00. Bring your bike to Knoxville and I will help you install LD's kit. We can film the procedure and archive it here for everyone's benefit. Bernie I meant to point out that if you look at LD's picture of his manifold kit you can see how simple and compact it is. The pic is the front view. On the back right is a bracket that the OEM throttle cable attaches to. Again, run a positive wire to the choke and a negative wire to the base plate for ground, install an Empi air filter and you are ready to ride. I didn't even hook up the choke-too lazy. Just start and hold a little throttle until it warms a bit. The manifold is made of tubing with mandrel bends so there are no restrictions in the flow from the carb to the cylinders. I never experienced any "sweating" on the manifold associated with some, which causes them to freeze up in the colder climates. LD made many different designs until he found the one that flows and performs like original equipment. He tried many different carbs to get the right one as well. I am planning to buy a 1200 and when I do, I will make the switch to LD's single carb. He rides his 1100 everyday all year, as well as I did, and never had an issue with the kit ever failing to perform as reliable or better than stock. Last edited on Wed Sep 9th, 2009 05:30 pm by Dubswing ____________________ GL1500 Valkyrie Work for tomorrow, live for today. Live life like you mean it! American Legion Member Patriot Guard Rider Member Vietnam Veteran 68/69 MSF Instructor |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 06:03 pm | 43rd Post |
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The manifold plenum volume looks to be lower than all other purchasable applications I've seen. This I like, for two strong reasons... There is a science to all of this. This (the manifold) looks to be a good combination in my book.
____________________ "They're gonna make it look like suicide." Hunter S. Thompson, one day before his death. |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 06:36 pm | 44th Post |
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He rides his 1100 everyday all year, as well as I did, and never had an issue with the kit ever failing to perform as reliable or better than stock.  < This is me - Green with envey!Tim.
____________________ **** Proud new father of a 91 1500 Aspencade **** 1) Experience is something you don't get until after you need it. 2) A closed mouth gathers no foot. 3) You aren't learning much when your lips are moving. 4) IF YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO IT RIGHT, WHEN WILL YOU HAVE TIME TO DO IT OVER?? |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 07:06 pm | 45th Post |
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I just finished installing a poorboy alternator kit on a friend's GL1200, as well as new timing belts. I also installed this kit on my GL1100 (a lot harder to make work). This too is a modification I highly recommend if you want/need more electrical power than the stock stator gives you, or if your stater croaks on you. My point is that LD's single carb kit can be done and ready to ride in less than an hour. The cost savings is substancial. I installed it because my right rear carb started leaking and I made the swap for less than I could rebuild one OEM carb, much less all 4 of them. The alternator mod is the same thing; a tremendous savings over replacing the OEM stator, plus you have an alternator and belt available at any parts house in the country. But it does take a lot of work and time to do. With people like LDWingnut and Phil Piggot making these kits for the GL1100 and 1200, Gold Wings will run forever! Bernie
____________________ GL1500 Valkyrie Work for tomorrow, live for today. Live life like you mean it! American Legion Member Patriot Guard Rider Member Vietnam Veteran 68/69 MSF Instructor |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 08:31 pm | 46th Post |
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Ok LD, Phil, Dubswing ... and all you other great carb gurus... let me ask the couple of questions then. I have a fairly strong mechanical background but its automotive and factory type machines, and now computers. I can understand the need for there to be just one mixing chamber that the 4 intakes draw from. {So that they all get the same mixture and can draw an even amount from.} But why is the size of the plenum of importance? I have several ideas but before I over think this and come to some completely incorrect answer ... which later on I might think is gospel truth ...{rolls eyes} Set me right please. Also let me pose the question.. Since you designed a plenum, of a particular size... have you tried one of those tornado things to see if spinning the gas/air mixture helps? I know they are $70 at the auto parts stores and you can make one from a couple of aluminum soda cans but some friends of mine love the ones in their cars and I just got to thinking ........ {which my ex wife says is dangerous for me} [Now you know why shes an EX] I thought hhmmm I wonder??? tornado ... spinning the fuel air mixture ... hhmmm ??? Wonder if he's tried that too? Anyway I love that there is so much interest in this thread. over 35 replies and over 1100 views. To me that means there is a lot more interest in this idea than many people think ... or in some instances ... would like. So lets keep the idea alive and see if we can improve on mother honda's setup, for a lot less money than the regular price of rebuilding her 4 stock carbs. Innovation is NOT dead!
____________________ IF it ain't broke, ... Work on it, It soon will be!!! G.Ray Glenn Sr "GEE-Ray" Proud owner/fixer/slave & sometimes rider [LOL] of the classic first edition 1980 GL1100 Goldwing Interstate |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 08:53 pm | 47th Post |
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The CI kit was from Cycle Innovations. In the heyday of the early wing CI was probably the biggest producer of these conversions. Several companies offered various other models such as the Holley Weber, some with water heated manifolds. I picked the Cycle Innovations as I thought it offered enough volume for me with its single Holley (custom made for CI in the day), since I used to run the same basic unit on International truck sixes. It looked really simple and took about a half hour to install once I had the old carbs off. I also plan to play with nitrous on this toy so the kit offered easy installation. I found the unused CI kit from an ad in NGW and they can be found occasionally. No need really since this VW kit is now on offer, no big outfit will be building for an obsolete bike.
____________________ Cookie 4 76 GL 1000s and 1 75 San Mateo, CA |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 08:58 pm | 48th Post |
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The diameter of the plenum determines the air mass flow rate. Get the plenum too large, and the air flow slows down too much, and the gas droplets don't disperse enough to get an even mixture.
____________________ John |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 09:01 pm | 49th Post |
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Guys like Randakk have installed dual Webers and have kits for them. But his kit is expensive and time must be taken to get the correct jetting. LD has created a simple, effective and reliable kit. No modifications to the bike. It can be returned to original by just reinstalling the original carbs. It is ridiculously inexpensive, long lasting and less that $20.00 dollars to rebuild the carb if and when needed. Now you can go to a fuel injection system and have the ultimate improvement but you are looking at more cost than these old bikes are worth. I have no substantial data to defend the use of a "tornado" and doubt it could be effectively installed on a motorcycle. For the cost of a Volkswagon carb and LD's manifold, you have new components that will take these Wings into their second and third lifetimes. Bernie
____________________ GL1500 Valkyrie Work for tomorrow, live for today. Live life like you mean it! American Legion Member Patriot Guard Rider Member Vietnam Veteran 68/69 MSF Instructor |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 10:10 pm | 50th Post |
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grayglennsr wrote: But why is the size of the plenum of importance? AS applied to LDs set-up, high runner velocity (as described by AZ) and the inability for fuel to pool are benefits I see to his negligable plenum volume. '4 bbl intake' thread at the NGW site: 6700 views, 200+ replies, 14 pages... Much of the thread really consist of Weber conversions. Hands-on strong over there. Books (online or otherwise) by Holley, Weber, etc. are also good reading. An educated tuner is a successful tuner. Experimentation don't come cheap. Fortunately most of the work has been done for us as evidenced by LDs (and others) set-up. PS - there's no site competition in my book.
____________________ "They're gonna make it look like suicide." Hunter S. Thompson, one day before his death. |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 10:46 pm | 51st Post |
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screw the single carb just go with the EFI
____________________ cagers on cell phones scare me I owe my life to a Stebel Nautilus |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 9th, 2009 10:59 pm | 52nd Post |
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If you wanted to invest maybe a grand and a lot of time EFI could be fun. I suspect a professional mechanic with a lot of equipment aroud could do it for less. The only pay off is going to be in fun as you could probably rebuild two sets of carbs that would work fine for the cost. The thing about using a stock common carb would be ease of repair on the road. You could get a kit for a Holley or a VW, Frenchy would Fed Ex you a stock kit for the stock carbs, but who are you going to call if your custom made EFI quits? Last I knew ghostbusters wasn't making roadcalls. That would also be a joy in my eyes for the Poorboy alternator,seems like parts would be easy to get in an emergency.
____________________ Cookie 4 76 GL 1000s and 1 75 San Mateo, CA |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 09:01 am | 53rd Post |
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Those Tornado vortex gismos were around in the late 70s.They were called Swarups.Some magazine did a test on them and some vehicles actually lost horsepower and fuel mileage, some no difference.The one success they had was with the rotary engine. The conclusion they came up with is no valves to blow the vortex up.It makes sense if the gas air tornado went directly into the combustion chamber without valve obstruction then the idea is plausible..One has got to wonder why such things aren't installed at any vehicle manufacturer if they really worked. The Swarup faded away quietly.Perhaps the patent ran out and some other "opportunist" saw a way to make a buck on a new generation of folks eager to improve there vehicles performance and fuel mileage.The Swarup and the Tornado are identical. If it didnt work as advertised then.......welllllllll. These Tornado gismos would more than likely hinder your single carb converion unless your looking for an obstuctions in your intake runners. Im sure the Abdominizer will make a comeback too someday. A really great gift for your unloved ones btw. Flatfour Last edited on Thu Sep 10th, 2009 09:03 am by flatfour |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 09:36 am | 54th Post |
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Having a "Tornado" throw fuel onto the sides of a plenum is of no value what-so-ever. Even if you could get one that small into Solex throat, and the effect somehow passes into and through the plenum (which it wouldn't), the runner length and cross section would dissipate its effects instantly. The insanity of it makes me wonder of whom actually bought enough of these things to eventually finance a infomercial... for years. Makes me want to go out and buy a bag of Kingsford Charcoal and market each briquette. 'Magic Horsepower Tablets' that, when added to fuel during a fill-up, work in conjunction with the Magnetic Fuel Aligners, Water Injection Units and Tornados that make life so much better.
____________________ "They're gonna make it look like suicide." Hunter S. Thompson, one day before his death. |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 09:48 am | 55th Post |
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yes I agree 125% with you all,naturaly. Keep up the good work for our cause.
____________________ LD Wingnut ldwingnut.com |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 06:34 pm | 56th Post |
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Wow.... I guess I churned up a tornado of opinion with that question. LOL Ok thanks for setting me straight on that score. I've never had a tornado but I still see the display for them in my local auto parts store. now if they were $19.99 I "might" have bought one for my car .... but at $70 my wallet stays closed. So can I interest anyone in a genuine imitation faux big foot tooth. LOL
____________________ IF it ain't broke, ... Work on it, It soon will be!!! G.Ray Glenn Sr "GEE-Ray" Proud owner/fixer/slave & sometimes rider [LOL] of the classic first edition 1980 GL1100 Goldwing Interstate |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 07:05 pm | 57th Post |
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I like the simplicity of the single carb but..... My 1983 gets 40+ mpg now with four stock carbs and it doesn't sound like the single carbs get that.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 07:29 pm | 58th Post |
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Mileage is very dependent on the gearing, jetting, and most of all the driver. The literature of most conversions get great mileage and more power, I'm a bit skeptical. In fact a properly jetted application should get similar mileage, maybe make a bit less top end power, but could have more mid range. When you cost this stuff out $50 in fuel one way or another in a year is not a big motivator. You would have to run one a lot to make that difference. What you stand to gain is simplicity and reliability. I think the biggest problem an old Goldwing now faces is time. The fuel is much more likly to clog a carb now just sitting and old holley and VW carbs are much less likely to be bothered by oold fuel. It looks much easier to clean one up if you do clog a passage. The floats are easy to set and not sensitive to adjustment to such a deagree. That said if I had a properly working set of carbs on a bike in good condition I'd stick with the stockers.
____________________ Cookie 4 76 GL 1000s and 1 75 San Mateo, CA |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 08:21 pm | 59th Post |
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Right on Cookie, I don’t drive or push my bike into the top end. I am a mid range kind of guy. Even if I lost a few HP it would be O.K. for the trade off of a more reliable carb system. I am not doing this to “save money”, “save gas” or increase power. That stuff is lost on me…. I don’t care about it. For the record, I have NEVER gotten more then 31 mpg (I think I converted it right). Never ever! I am hoping for a bit of a bump on mileage. I just want the reliability. I (MHO) don’t think I would call MY carbs reliable. I wish they were but their not. I am willing to try something new to get reliability. What is the worst thing that could happen? Really though… what? I don’t have to modify the bike at all. I reuse what I need to mount it. If it does not work up to my expectation, then I clean and fix my original carbs and bolt them back on and look for something else. Would I loose the money for the conversion? Some yes, but in the grand scheme of things going on in my life and my financial situation, it will not make or break me. We all know fuel is not what it use to be. When my bike was relatively new (or any vintage Goldwing) did they have these problems back then? When my bike was 3 years old did they have to “do the carbs”? How about 5 or 6 years old? When along the Goldwing time line did we (Goldwing owners) have to start rebuilding carbs more and more often? “Redoing carbs” is an all to common theme here on this fine forum. My grandmother, God rest her sole, taught me one good lesson once when I was a kid. I won’t tell you why I got this lecture but she said “Don’t be so rigid in your thoughts, be flexible and look at other points of views. Be open to new ideas and experiences – try them all!” Man I miss her… anyway… If it does work up to my expectations, then I will have a set of carbs for sale – cheap and with a disclaimer. Tim.
____________________ **** Proud new father of a 91 1500 Aspencade **** 1) Experience is something you don't get until after you need it. 2) A closed mouth gathers no foot. 3) You aren't learning much when your lips are moving. 4) IF YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO IT RIGHT, WHEN WILL YOU HAVE TIME TO DO IT OVER?? |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 08:48 pm | 60th Post |
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It sounds like you would enjoy doing it for the fun of tinkering which is part of the fun of an old bike. After a day of meetings and spreadsheets I look forward to tinkering with an old bike after work. With seven bikes there is always somthing to do. If you do it yourself you get a double reward, the first time you hear the engine, and when you take it out on the raod. So far I've only walked back home on a test run once....(make sure the battery is good).
____________________ Cookie 4 76 GL 1000s and 1 75 San Mateo, CA |
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