| Single Carb Conversions for 4 Cylinder Goldwings |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 09:37 pm | 61st Post |
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I always ride one up. On my '83 Wing I got 43 to 45 MPG with the stock carbs and 43 to 45 MPG with the single VW carb setup. No difference in performance, gas milage, big difference in reliability and cost savings on rebuild. Bernie
____________________ GL1500 Valkyrie Work for tomorrow, live for today. Live life like you mean it! American Legion Member Patriot Guard Rider Member Vietnam Veteran 68/69 MSF Instructor |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 06:59 am | 62nd Post |
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hey Broke Winger Very well said. I didn't know anything about the history and I'm sorry that such a heated discussion occurred. But I too stand by desire to have a more reliable, less expensive, less maintenance, carb setup on my bike. I don't race my bike. My trailer is not heavy and I hardly even know its behind me. I ride mostly one up but occasionally 2 up. So as long as I can hit 70 for passing and get over 35 MPG I'm happy. The best mileage I ever saw was exactly 40 on a one day highway trip ... but mostly I see 33 - 36 MPG. combination of city & highway driving. While that's nicer than my car, it's the ride that's fun. Everybody ride safe.
____________________ IF it ain't broke, ... Work on it, It soon will be!!! G.Ray Glenn Sr "GEE-Ray" Proud owner/fixer/slave & sometimes rider [LOL] of the classic first edition 1980 GL1100 Goldwing Interstate |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 11:20 am | 63rd Post |
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Broke Winger wrote: At this point all I ask is that people keep an open mind, that the purist be a little more tolerant of us adventurers, of us that don't have the money, the time, or the skill. Those of us who want a simple solution to a very very persistent problem. Thank You! Very well said. Tim.
____________________ **** Proud new father of a 91 1500 Aspencade **** 1) Experience is something you don't get until after you need it. 2) A closed mouth gathers no foot. 3) You aren't learning much when your lips are moving. 4) IF YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO IT RIGHT, WHEN WILL YOU HAVE TIME TO DO IT OVER?? |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 12:46 pm | 64th Post |
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Awesome Broke Winger! You, Silicon Sam, me and others have proved that single carb setups do work. Have you ever thought about the fact that a carb does not know what engine it is sitting on; and doesn't care! All its job is, is to mix and meter fuel and air and send it to the engine for combustion. The VW carb has had a tremendously reliable life in the harsh winters of Germany for decades helping 1500cc engines push 1900 pound cars all over Europe. No one can tell me they cannot work just as well pushing a 1000 pound or less 1100 or 1200cc bike anywhere it wants to go, any time and in any weather conditions. My friend LD, has made a manifold that flows as good as any that has ever been on the market and does not sweat so it does not freeze in cold weather. The carb he chose only needs a smaller jet to make the Wing perform flawlessly. I have to disagree that the single carb isn't a performance carb. If you rode LD's 1100 you would be amazed at the acceleration it has. And he races his bike at the drags to make sure it will perform because he wants it to be a complete system. I can't speak for anyone else but his setup on my '83 1100 got 43 to 45 MPG consistently. That is riding here in the mountains of Tennessee and on trips to West Virginia, Virginia and North Carolina. Thank you again for setting the record straight, If a double weber carb system will work, a single VW carb system will work too. We have proved it time and again! Bernie
____________________ GL1500 Valkyrie Work for tomorrow, live for today. Live life like you mean it! American Legion Member Patriot Guard Rider Member Vietnam Veteran 68/69 MSF Instructor |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 03:52 pm | 65th Post |
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You probably installed your weber before LD made his setup available to the public. But I have to say there are many here that do all their own maintenance, rebuilds, repairs, and modifications. True, there are other forums that supply vast amounts of knowledge such as naked wings etc., but in my limited dealings with other forums, I have found pretty much the same technical info on all of them. It is true that many Wingers would rather find products already made and have others more qualified, do their maintenance, and I have to commend them for doing that. It allows people with talent to furnish a service not otherwise available to everyone, especially those that enjoy riding but do not have the technical skills to maintain their bikes. I would like to see your weber setup. Most of us enjoy seeing a different way of accomplishing the same thing. A winter project, if I can find the time, is to make a double manifold that would use the VW carbs, one on each side much like Randakk's dual weber setup. This would only work on the naked wings but should provide increased performance for those thinking they need it and the same MPG if jetted properly. I will work on this with LD if his and my time permits. I agree with you wholeheartedly, I would never rebuild a stock setup. When they need rebuilding; replacing them with a new and more simple setup is the only way to go! Hopefully, we on this forum are heading toward more technical discussions, mods and advice to meet the needs and desires of all that visit here. Bernie
____________________ GL1500 Valkyrie Work for tomorrow, live for today. Live life like you mean it! American Legion Member Patriot Guard Rider Member Vietnam Veteran 68/69 MSF Instructor |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 05:01 pm | 66th Post |
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If you look through the archives, you will find post after post after post after post after....well you get the idea, on the subject of carburetor issues with these older Wings. Air cut offs, idle jets, synchronizing, leaking, float settings, noises, it goes on and on the potential for failure. Import machines have just about always had multiple carbs. It's one of the things that separates them from American bikes. We've all said that Harley's are poorly engineered when compared with imports, and on many levels that is true. But until they switch over to fuel injection, they all came with just a single carb. Fewer parts means less potential for part failure. I personally don't have the skill, the knowledge of physics or the resources to build my own system. But I would dearly love to. I have some ideas and thoughts on it that I'd love to be able to put into practice and test. Like most who have spoken here have said I don't race my bike. I rarely go over 60 mph with it. So top end performance isn't an issue for me. I do ride hard though, my friends all say I "ride it like I stole it". I pound her pretty hard off the line and I tend to ride aggressively on roads I know well. I get a solid average of around 32 mpg across the whole spectrum, between easy cruising, to touring, to hard balls out beat the hell out of it rides. I have gotten as little as 20 miles to the gallon when really hogging the snot out of her. And I know that an OEM system in perfect condition would perform much better. I don't have one. Nor do I have the money to buy one, rebuild it with quality materials (and yes if I were to do so I would indeed buy Randall's kit it is the best out there), I don't have the skills to do it myself, I don't have the money to have someone else do it. So, why on earth, when I have a single carb system, that allows me to actually ride my Wing any time I want to with little to no maintenance, would I opt for a problematic system I can't afford just because it's the stock system? Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean it is always the right way to do it. Anyway...on to the more technical side of this. It is my belief that the biggest downfall of these Wings, whether OEM or single carb system is the damn down tubes. That very tall nearly ninety degree turning, down tube has to be the single most inhibitive thing I have ever seen in carburetion. Eliminating that down tube is the biggest reason that Randall's dual Webber system performs so well. It's my thought that building a manifold that actually eliminated the down tubes, that delivered the air/fuel mixture directly to the head would be far more efficient, and far more responsive. Again I'll reference Randall's dual Webber setup, it does indeed outperform the OEM setup, and it sounds like a motor head's wet dream. Two bad it's uglier than home made sin and four times as expensive. I'll never ever understand why the super geniuses at Honda thought that four side draft carbs were the way to go on an engine with downdraft heads. I've seen pictures of Randall's blower system, it utilizes an intake manifold that sits down on the motor and ports directly into the heads, the manifold even LOOKS more efficient. I've seen a few other similar manifolds and have always wanted to get my hands on one. Not to long ago some one build there own manifold out of PVC that is very similar in design to the CI system. They built it using things that are readily available at any hardware store. I think their total cost for the entire project was around $50. There is a thread here on it complete with pictures. Their Wing is blue and they painted the manifold to match. Do not be afraid to experiment with your own ideas, and do not be afraid of single carb systems in general. I am sure that eventually some one will find the perfect combination of manifold configuration and carburetor. Some one will eventually put together a single carb system that will not only work, not only require minimal maintenance, not only be as efficient as the OEM but will out perform it as well. By the way, some one posted earlier that the Holley carb that was used ont he Ci system was custom built for it. This is not true. There were two batches of that system produced. The first batch used Holley carb model 1940 which was the OEM carb for 66 Mustangs with six cylinder motors. It was also used on several six cylinder Chrysler and Jeep applications of the same era. There were 1000 of them made and every one of them sold. By the time CI got around to makeing the second batch Holley had discontinued production of the 1940 carb but had replaced with a different model with the same size throat, same foot print and the same CFM. I can not remember the model number for that carb at this time. But the rebuilt kit is the same for both carbs. There were 500 made in the second batch and every one of them was sold. Shortly there after the company ceased to exist for reasons I do not know. So there are a total of 1500 CI systems out there. Every now and then you see one on eBay, they sell for right around $400 usually. No mine is not, and will never be for sale. The only way I'll sell it is if I sell the bike and it goes with it. What I would dearly love to do, is find a way to relocate everything that is under the false tank, cut away the frame there and reconfigure it so that it's still structurally sound but not running over top of the carburetor. So that I could leave the fake tank off and expose this single carb system. It has a chrome air cleaner, I'd love to paint the carb itself Ford blue and have it out there to be seen. Maybe someday I'll just build a GL1100 powered Model T. Last edited on Fri Sep 11th, 2009 05:04 pm by Broke Winger ____________________ P.G.R. Member ID: 88374 http://www.patriotguard.org Our Soldiers are what make us strong. Without them there would be no USA. |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 05:09 pm | 67th Post |
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I am in the process of trying to buy one of LD WINGNUT'S carb set ups for my 1100. My stock carbs are ok for now but I want to go ahead and get it just to have when I am ready to change. Dwight
____________________ DEBLAK Dwight Bryant PAST BIKES: 1968 HONDA 305 DREAM, BRIDGESTONE 350, 50CC & 125CC CIMATTI, 1975 HONDA 350, 1976 HONDA 750. |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 05:13 pm | 68th Post |
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Just as to throw more fuel on this fire, The talk here seems to be that one holly carb will give so so performance. Has anyone done a conversion with a two barrel ? I think alot of guys have forgotten cars have run with singl barrel cars for 100 years and changing a two barrel to a four barrel was the hop up of the day. Not saying we need four barrels, but maybe a low cost two barrel conversion might wake that baby up, and still be low maintenance.
____________________ Bikes Ive owned, '69 Norton,'48 Harley panhead, '71 Bsa, '76 gl1000,'93 Harley ultra,'03 Harley ultra,'05 Sportster, '82 GW 1100.'96 Police road king very used. "I tried thinking once, but nothing happened" .,,, |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 05:31 pm | 69th Post |
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I was just informed that there are some things in my post regarding Randall that are incorrect. His rebuild kit for the OEM carbs is actually $197.90, and that includes priority mail shipping. He is also still a member here but does not post publicly. I'm including a link here to one of Randall's pages that pretty much sums up his stance on single carb setups. It seems I may have painted a somewhat uglier picture of the man than he deserves. A lot of people think very highly of him, and take his opinion as gospel. He's very passionate about these old Wings but in a more purist like sense than most of us. We aren't collectors we're riders. And I think that is where the biggest gap is, well there and between the size of our bank accounts. OOPS here's the link. Link removed because Randall doesn't want his site linked to from here. Last edited on Fri Sep 11th, 2009 09:49 pm by Broke Winger ____________________ P.G.R. Member ID: 88374 http://www.patriotguard.org Our Soldiers are what make us strong. Without them there would be no USA. |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 05:42 pm | 70th Post |
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Weber Progressive w/VW type 3 manifold would be the norm. As a sidenote: My last three Viragos got the single carb treatment, and my CB900 started its life with me on one carb. All ran perfect. All were reliable. No negative performance issues. The idea aint new.
____________________ "They're gonna make it look like suicide." Hunter S. Thompson, one day before his death. |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 06:15 pm | 71st Post |
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You are exactly right Captain Midnight! And there is more than one way to do it. This has been proven by the number of different styles that people have made and are happy with. With LD's venture into this area, we now have another supplier from which to choose from. I won't get into the Randakk issue except to say he is a good wrench and has good products. The best parts of this mod is that it is so easy and it works! Bernie
____________________ GL1500 Valkyrie Work for tomorrow, live for today. Live life like you mean it! American Legion Member Patriot Guard Rider Member Vietnam Veteran 68/69 MSF Instructor |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11th, 2009 07:17 pm | 72nd Post |
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I had no idea this was that controversial. Yes, a number of different carbs have been used, maybe the best I've seen was the Holley Weber on a water heated manifold. In most cases when a carb is set up for a manufacturer they just take a stock carb and install the correct jetting and sometimes linkages for that run. I imagine this is what CI meant when they said the carb was custom made for them. Sure, there will be a ton of carbs that use that same kit, and yes, I'm sure they were used extensively on many other appications as most components are. This is one of the joys of using a common part like this. I bet in a bad case you could walk a junkyard and find something that would bolt on and run, if not perfectly.
____________________ Cookie 4 76 GL 1000s and 1 75 San Mateo, CA |
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 03:14 am | 73rd Post |
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Awhile back my friend Raymond using an oil heated manifold made by a gentleman from Germany, used a Weber 32/36 DGV and tuned it properly! After installing it he said when opening up the secondary it gave life to the bike like a small supercharger !! The bike is currently owned by Silicom Sam if I'm not mistaken!! I am still in the process of using a Weber Holley 32/36 carb on my CI manifold !! And for what it's worth I have used a CI setup for about 9 years and had little problems with it !! I really don't gave a care what anyone says about the single carbs pro/con I Love Mine and if I can upgrade mine to the 2 barrel, Great!! Life is too short PEACE OUT!!!  Bob
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 06:54 am | 74th Post |
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Single carb setups are a great and needed alternative. After all these Wings are getting older and parts harder to get. The original carb setup is amazing when set just right and everything clean. But in many cases like mine I am not the original owner and many have worked on the carbs before me. First set was not rebuildable , and took 2 used sets to come up with 4 good carb bodies, Some had the needle holders screwed in so hard forced the jet way out into throat, and pilot screws, well far to often they have been screwed way to tight and seats ruined. not to mention the broken float pivots. Seeing as carbs are one of the more common problems I really have considered going to single carb. I am glad to see another kit available out there , as parts become more unavailable they are a solution to keep on riding, and wings do just keep on going and going. The VW steup looks ideal and from much experience with racing manifolds for cars it has been my understanding that the heat is really only neccessay when there is a plenum area in the manifold where mixture slows and heat helps keep the fuel vaporized and not settle out. The Vw setup should avoid that problem altogether. Original is a thing of beauty when right but anything that works reliably and lets you keep on riding is wonderful too.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 08:12 am | 75th Post |
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The innovation aint new either. Porsche Carrera-powered Beemer from yesteryear... Attachment: pmw6carrera.jpg (Downloaded 746 times)
____________________ "They're gonna make it look like suicide." Hunter S. Thompson, one day before his death. |
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 03:38 pm | 76th Post |
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A centered IDF seems like a good way to go also... Attachment: IDF.jpg (Downloaded 738 times) Last edited on Sat Sep 12th, 2009 03:41 pm by CaptainMidnight85 ____________________ "They're gonna make it look like suicide." Hunter S. Thompson, one day before his death. |
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 04:12 pm | 77th Post |
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Hello all, I just wanted to throw another perspective on the subject. I have been studying wings, and in fact bought mine (81 1100) for one reason. I have the desire to take looooong trips .. my wife is Colombian, and I am planning to take some trips on the Pan Am highway, I think it would be awesome to hit the southern tip of Argentina.. and in so planning I looked at reliability and on the road repair-ability.. to that end I chose the 81 1100. simple, reliable, dependable. I plan to make the following mods. poor boy conversion single carb conversion. the only other week spot i see with an 81 is the tire size, and i'm still debating on that solution. but the point is, I want to be able to know it is going to work... fix it on the side of the road.. run whatever crappy gas i find in whatever country, and adjust it to work... whether here in phx or in the highlands of peru and chile... .and god knows that if i use a vw setup i wont have problems finding parts!  so i am motivated a bit different than most... and when you see my wing after the next couple weeks you will see i'm definitely from the modification group.. I have no desire to maintain stock look, I am chopping the false tank, building wider lower fairings, putting in air ducts. taking all gauges off of the steering and building a dash. covering over the steering as the newer wings have done, and in general, making it the way i want it! i will provide pics as i go.. but i just wanted to interject on the single carb.
____________________ “Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself”: FDR’s First Inaugural Address 81 GL1100I - Daily rider and project bike - keeps my mind spinning with options.. Barry |
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 04:17 pm | 78th Post |
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will be very interested in your project as you go along Barry. I take it that you are just as comfortable in Spanish as our home language.
____________________ John |
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 05:23 pm | 79th Post |
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This,is the weber 28/30 that is on my 77 full dress.I just rejetted it yesterday.It is now spot on.I put on thinner gaskets between the heads and intake runners,thus the intake runners now heat up faster.Before the intake runners sweated with condensation. Now for the performance comparison.The stockers on my naked 75 definitley have a horspower advantage.It revs up and makes horsepower better than the Weber. The 77 webered GL definetly has a torque advantage.Its got a huge advantage.It weighs in heavier with the full dress kit yet the test I used to compare is a long very steep hill, 2.2 miles of incline. The 75 with stockers is crying for a downshift 2/3s of the way up.The webered 77 with extra weight goes all the way up in 5th gear without a whimper. I tested them both locking the cruise control on both at 3400 rpm in 5th gear on the flat before the hill. The best part of all is changing the jets is a 10 to 12 minute job.All done thru the top of the fake tank lid. remove air cleaner six screws,disconnect choke linkage lift top of carb off, change jet reverse order,done, go ride. Both bikes are in perfectly tuned.Webererd 77 has just under 51,000k and 75 is just under 31,000k Anyone considering the conversion asks me if it works i would say "yessssssssss it works beautifully".And my last tank of fuel yielded 38 mpg with lots of full throttle bursts. Flatfour Attachment: weber 2.jpg (Downloaded 735 times) Last edited on Sat Sep 12th, 2009 07:18 pm by flatfour |
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12th, 2009 08:15 pm | 80th Post |
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Bschofield wrote: Hello all, I just wanted to throw another perspective on the subject. I have been studying wings, and in fact bought mine (81 1100) for one reason. I have the desire to take looooong trips .. I am planning to take some trips on the Pan Am highway, I think it would be awesome to hit the southern tip of Argentina.. and in so planning I looked at reliability and on the road repair-ability..I wouldn't take 30 years-old bike that far. Any machine works relaibly until it breaks... Last edited on Sat Sep 12th, 2009 08:58 pm by newbiker ____________________ 76, 83, 84I,84A, 86 SEi Wings are gone, now 75, 84A I have to stop buying dead old Wings...  ignition switch for $8, solenoid for $10, fuel pump for $30 still work fine! |
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