| Big Brother Honda..received ths yet??? | Rate Topic |
| Moderators: redbaron, MDKramer, Flyone, AZgl1500 | Page:   1 2 3 4 5   |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 09:45 am | 41st Post |
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Foodman wrote: Not being a computer geek, my question is once you've downloaded the material how can they tell if you've dumped it or not ?? Will this be on the honor system ?? Would Honda spend the money to make a few 100 test cases to scare all others ?? ...they better not start scaring people, after having annoyed a lot of Goldwing riders with this unnecessary action... Don´t they wanna sell motorcycles any more? I´m not mad, I´m sad...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 09:46 am | 42nd Post |
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Well, the facts are; goldwingdocs made the manuals available for download in a manner that is indeed an infringement of copyright law. Mother Honda is well within her rights to demand the infringement stop. Mother Honda chose a quiet and mostly polite non-litigious method of doing so. This understandably pisses off a lot of people who made use of the infringement. Some of those people are making a stink over it. They are making a huge stink over something a HUGE corporation was trying to handle quietly. My opinions are; making a big stink over Mother Honda's actions is kind of like poking a dragon in the eye with a sharp stick after he has very nicely asked you to leave his den, you're likely to get burned and the dragon won't really care how much you cry about it. This is the result of retaliatory actions taken either by or on the behalf of a certain vendor that I will not name but I am sure will lose even more customers as time goes on. My speculation; Coupled with Honda's decision to pull GoldWing production out of America this demand to have the downloadable material be made inaccessible will do very little to ensure future sales of the GoldWing here in the states especially. In fact, I can assure you that I for one will NEVER purchase a new GoldWing, or any other new Honda for that matter. I have heard several others voice the same stance in response to the decision to pull production out of the states, I'm sure more will feel even more disloyalty to Honda after this. Were I to buy a new motorcycle, I have to say it would be a Harley. Their customer service and post-sales support is impeccable and unique. Harley Dealers service Harleys regardless of age. I just wish they made their bikes a little bigger. "And that's all I have to say about that" - Forest Gump
____________________ P.G.R. Member ID: 88374 http://www.patriotguard.org Our Soldiers are what make us strong. Without them there would be no USA. |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 11:47 am | 43rd Post |
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Very well said, Broke.
____________________ Rudy RudysProducts Info: Due to recent declining health, I have decided to pass Rudy's Products on to a nearby friend who will be trained to do it right. As a result, product availability will be hit or miss during the transition, both at the web store and at Cyclemax. SmartLights are discontinued with the possibility of occasional small batches being made if there is interest. The transition will be gradual and I will continue to make items as I am able. Please expect extended delivery times. If you have a specific need, please let me know and I will attempt to accommodate you. I thank you all for your friendship, support and loyalty. |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 12:04 pm | 44th Post |
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So ya are all mad huh?? Never gonna buy another Honda and threaten revenge.   We all got caught with our hands in the cookie jar and momma slapped us. I have seen the manuals displayed on web sites using them to draw business to their pay for click advertisements. I think Mother Honda handled it well . No one has been sued, or burned at the stake. Lighten up, smile, just go buy you a manual from a legit source if you need one. The manuals do not do me much good anyway, I am from Awakansas and I never did learn how to read the big words in them, I just use the little ones.  Tis just a thing, I am surprised it lasted as long as it did. If it had been kept low key and not put on sites to promote personal pay for click adds it would still be cool. People will mess things up for themselves always, just give them time. Kit
____________________ The 1800 is my bike. The very best motorcycle ever made. I was enthralled with my first test ride on this machine. It is a great bike. A crotch rocket with storage bags.............As for oil I use the slick kind, and I like round tires, but as of late I have found square ones work best on the rear. Pirelli Eufori 195/55/16 @ 32 PSI Kit |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 12:47 pm | 45th Post |
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Sounds to me like they don't want anyone to know how to fix their own stuff. Perhaps the $70+ an hour labor just isn't flying these days in this economy.
____________________ "Please Tell Your Boobs To Quit Staring At My Eyes" 1983 GL1100I |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 01:01 pm | 46th Post |
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I wouldn't mind paying for high res electronic copies of the Honda manuals if I knew Honda was getting their cut. James
____________________ Never ride faster then your guardian angle can fly. Current Bikes 1974 Honda CB550, 40000 Miles. 1980 GL1100 Interstate, 102789 KM when purchased. |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 01:04 pm | 47th Post |
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cntryboy1289 wrote: I called the number and asked if the manuals were still available, I was put on hold while the guy looked for me to see if they had what I was looking for. He came back and told me to to go the website that Snorebaby gave. I asked if that was the only source and was told that the site was licensed to sell the manuals. Be careful with assumptions and hearsay. Did you know I am the worst plumber in town. Well I am. I have to be, it is on the internet. We, myself and about five or six of my fellow competitors at the supply house this Monday laughed until we figured someone needed to come give us some air. We have all been in the jar. All have been the worst plumber in town. I ran a call for an old lady, she is on fixed income. She has a 30 year old or more kitchen sink faucet and it was so rotten just touch the handle and pieces crumbled off. She said she could not afford a new one. So I was nice and temp put a couple washers in it, told her to call me when she had the money. Did not charge her a dime. At the supply house I am the talk of the town, I am the worst plumber ever, those washers did not last and the handle fell off and I am the biggest rip off artist on the face of the planet. Billy Sturkie is having a time with this one, as he is the one the lady called to install a new faucet.  Careful what you assume, and say. People are by nature evil. So I just smile and it is just a thing, but careful of assumption. Kit
____________________ The 1800 is my bike. The very best motorcycle ever made. I was enthralled with my first test ride on this machine. It is a great bike. A crotch rocket with storage bags.............As for oil I use the slick kind, and I like round tires, but as of late I have found square ones work best on the rear. Pirelli Eufori 195/55/16 @ 32 PSI Kit |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 01:20 pm | 48th Post |
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I would have to agree with Honda, if some one was licensed to sell the manuals then the free ones needed taken down. Doesn't mean I like it, but they have to help protect their vendors. I'm not sure I care for their (and their dealers) attitude about older machines. I had a 1976 BMW that I could still get any part from BMW. I could also get the service manual from BMW. Most BMW dealers would still work on that old airhead. Even though they don't make money off of those that buy the older bikes they could still be making money off of parts. Anyone with an old Wing that is happy with the machine, service, and so on decides to buy new, good chance it will be a new wing or Honda of some sort. I think if I was a company that already made my R&D money back on a product, and the product still had a following after 10 years, I would make it easy for folks to keep and maintain that product. You could probably assume that those owning that product are doing much of their own maintenance. I would supply those folks with the information they needed and make my money off the parts. My dealers aren't making any money off of servicing them as they don't service anything older than 10 years. Course, what do i know, I'm no fancy pants CEO Last edited on Wed Mar 10th, 2010 01:21 pm by jwhitmore44 ____________________ Main rides in order by year: 03 Honda XR650L 99 Shadow VLX (VT600C) 84 GL1200 Aspencade |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 01:25 pm | 49th Post |
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Until your lawyers explained to you about the risk of setting legal precedents.
____________________ Rudy RudysProducts Info: Due to recent declining health, I have decided to pass Rudy's Products on to a nearby friend who will be trained to do it right. As a result, product availability will be hit or miss during the transition, both at the web store and at Cyclemax. SmartLights are discontinued with the possibility of occasional small batches being made if there is interest. The transition will be gradual and I will continue to make items as I am able. Please expect extended delivery times. If you have a specific need, please let me know and I will attempt to accommodate you. I thank you all for your friendship, support and loyalty. |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 03:19 pm | 50th Post |
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Broke Winger is right. Thanks for your site GS!
____________________ Keep it Shiny Side Up Jim -------------------- |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 03:58 pm | 51st Post |
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I am thinking that Honda will do just like Harley-Davidson. They willl pull production, get nasty, in about 10 years they will come creeping back into this country all meek and mild. If you have a Wing, I say hang on to it. If you don't have a Wing, I am sorry.
____________________ Only bike I really wanted to ever own is GOLD. There are only two types of Goldwings Rolled Gold - Pretzels Old Gold - Polish Patriot Guard Rider - Let's Show Them The Respect They Deserve. http://www.nmpatriotguard.org http://www.patriotguard.org |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 04:20 pm | 52nd Post |
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Kit Carson wrote: Careful what you assume, and say. People are by nature evil. Disagree with that entirely. Pretty cynical outlook if you ask me.
____________________ Mark 1984 GL 1200 Aspencade "To live you must be willing to die" Amir Vahedi My father gets smarter everyday that he's gone. "I worried that I had no shoes until I saw a man that had no feet" |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 09:41 pm | 53rd Post |
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Copyright owners are rightly entitled to pursue anyone duplicating their material, distributing and/ offering it to third parties (even for no charge). However, in the case of workshop manuals and other informative/instructional material there have been some cases where people have got around this by uploading copied (fair use-backed up/copied their own manual for their own use) material to a server or site for their own use and password protecting the material, also putting a warning on the web page that this is his or her own personal backup. Some of the passwords looked easy to guess-the uploader giving themselves a reminder on the web page, which means many people can probably guess it. Under those circumstances (and assuming the alleged offender doesn't openly advertise the material) the copyright owners legal advisor has an almost impossible job proving the alleged offender is offering copyrighted material to others. You probably all know of the well-known GL1800 owner who copied his GL1800 Honda workshop manual and made it available as a download back around 2003. Honda sent him a letter (possibly more than one, I can't recall) and he did as I explained here and let people know on another forum. The letters from Honda stopped. Now I am not condoning the copying and distributing of copyright material or advising you on how to get around copyright laws, I'm just loosely describing information from cases that are already well known and out there for anyone to search.
____________________ Kevin. |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 11:46 pm | 54th Post |
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Honda also doesn't have a choice. It's a point of fact that if you fail to protect your copyright, it can be considered reverted to the public domain. Honda has to make a least an attempt, whether or not they actually intend to pursue this to the point that the MPIAA and RIAA pursued P2P users is entirely up to them. If an infringement has been brought to their attention and they do nothing......it would pave the way for the unauthorized distribution of current materials to the point where they do in fact experience a loss. Not to mention the fact that digitally produced documents are easily manipulated and could be deliberately edited to induce a user to perform some type of damaging or dangerous action. Honda has to take steps to mitigate this risk.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 12:32 am | 55th Post |
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THIS IS AN IMPORTANT REQUEST To all members. Please read ALL of this. I received an email today from GoldwingDocs.com asking for help. Following is the text: From: GoldwingDocs.com Date: 09/03/2010 04:45:11 To: guyjulie@pacbell.net Subject: Important announcement from GoldwingDocs.com Hello, You're receiving this message because you are a registered user of goldwingdocs.com. We have recently received a request from Honda asking that we remove virtually all of the downloadable Honda manuals from our web site. This includes almost every manual on the site - the majority of which are over twenty years old, and are not available for sale anywhere, at any price. It includes Owners Manuals for 20 and 30 year old motorcycles - motorcycles whose manuals have long since been lost, and whose new owners come to goldwingdocs.com, looking for information to safely operate their motorcycles. While we don't agree with Honda's decision, we will be complying with Honda's request shortly. We would however, like to ask a quick favor of you. We would ask you to contact Honda Motorcycle, and let them know just what you think of this decision. There are over ten thousand registered users who have benefited from goldwingdocs.com - if even a slight fraction of those users contact Honda Motorcycle, it may have an effect on their decisions going forward, and their support of classic Honda motorcycles. We appreciate it, and so do all the owners of classic Goldwings, who have come to rely on goldwingdocs.com for their safety and maintenance information! Here is their contact information: Motorcycle Division American Honda Motor Co., Inc. Mail stop: 100-4C-7B P.O. Box 2200 Torrance, CA 90509-2200 Telephone: (866) 784-1870 ____________________________________________ So, I wrote to Honda and here is a copy of the letter I sent. You may use any or all of it if you wish for your own letter: March 9, 2010 Motorcycle Division American Honda Motor Co., Inc. Mail stop: 100-4C-7B P.O. Box 2200 Torrance, CA 90509-2200 American Honda Motor Co. Inc., As a current owner and long time rider of Honda motorcycles, I am disappointed and discouraged at the tactics being employed by Honda Motor Co. Inc. to limit and restrict loyal customer access to vintage and hard to find Honda parts, manuals and services. Through the use of legal threats and intimidation, Honda has successfully closed down numerous small businesses in both the US and Canada who’s only crime was to offer access to information and materials that assists Honda owners in maintaining their prized vintage Honda motorcycles. Materials, by the way, that Honda no longer cares to support or sell. Honda’s most recent conquest? Reproduction Decals of Canada is no longer able to make available their high quality graphics and emblems to loyal Honda owners trying to maintain their machines. If American Honda is unable or unwilling to support their loyal customer base, why not let someone else do it, and my I suggest, with their blessing and support! Looking at this from a customer point of view, I would have to conclude that Honda has no interest in nurturing long-term loyal customers. It would seem they prefer to have their customers vintage motorcycles sent to the scrap heap just so they can sell them a new one! As for me, I am loyal Honda rider who has purchased 5 new Honda Goldwings over the past 20 years and currently own and maintain a classic 1976 Goldwing. However, I will not be purchasing another new Goldwing from Honda until this harassment has stopped. In addition, I will take every opportunity to voice my distrust of Honda and their motives in each and every on-line Honda Goldwing forum in which I participate. Sincerely, Guy Petersen Placerville, CA _________________________________ Here is an example of a letter written by another individual: Motorcycle Division American Honda Motor Company Mail stop: 100-4C-7B P.O. Box 2200 Torrance, CA 90509-2200 Dear Motorcycle Division Contact: I am one of the many proud owners of 1977 GL1000 Goldwings. As these bikes are some 33 years old, it is becoming difficult to find quality Honda replacements parts. But most fortunately the bike is proving to be pretty reliable, a testament to your company’s design resources from decades back. As you may be aware, my local Honda dealer (Motor City Powersports near Pontiac MI) is very limited in how he can help me these days. For quite some time, shop manuals and owner’s manuals have not be available from my dealer (or other local dealers in Southeast Michigan) in print or in electronic *.pdf form. Yesterday I learned that an on-line resource for Honda literature has removed these historic manuals from circulation. So going forward, there is no commercial or public source that I have found for documentation on these historic vehicles. The current situation is very disturbing as it is certain to distress the value and hence preservation of these excellent historic products from the daily riding public. Yes the museums are not going to have a problem, but were your bikes really built to become dust collectors in a museum or might your history be better served by a frequent ride from a historic Honda enthusiasts’? I think you can understand my concern. I struggle to understand the advantage to Honda Motorcycle Company, let alone the Historic Honda owner, to pull this information from circulation. While I can certainly understand the disadvantage to Honda Dealers regarding Honda products that dealers do retail, perhaps using a blanket policy for all copyrighted documents when your Dealers do not choose to retail the historic Honda copyrighted documents should be revisited? To protect the distribution of documents is one thing, but to eliminate all distribution is quite another. Sincerely, _________________________________ An yet another..... Customer Relations Support Dept. Motorcycle Division American Honda Motor Company Mail stop: 100-4C-7B P.O. Box 2200 Torrance, CA 90509-2200 Dear Sirs, In reference to your request to http://www.GoldwingDocs.com to remove the online manuals, this has to be one of the biggest public relations gaffs ever made by Honda! Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Or both feet! While I understand that the copyrights may have been infringed, I totally fail to see how this in any way could have hurt Honda since the vast majority of the manuals have been out of print for years in many cases and Honda have obviously no intention of re-introducing them since their company policy is abandonment of all support for their customers with Honda products over ten years old. Since these manuals are rarely offered on the used market, this source was one of the few where owners of these classic bikes could get their information. The use of these online facilities, together with all the forums which are run by non-profit organizations (loss-making in most cases) dedicated to maintaining and keeping these wonderful old classics going, has in fact helped the Honda image to a huge extent. If the moron who instigated these proceedings could see and hear the reaction of ordinary people when they see a Honda product still looking great, sounding superb and making the owner very proud of having a 25-30 year old Honda motorcycle that still does the job that it was intended for, perhaps he/she would realize the enormous potential for positive publicity that enabling us to maintain our machines can bring. On top of that, in keeping these machines running we have also helped the Honda dealerships in some way by purchasing obsolete stock that would otherwise would have to have been written off. To do that requires in most cases that we have access to part numbers, as the dealers cannot be normally expected to know about bikes of this age. Hence the need for the ability to read parts manuals. So, instead of doing something innovative and positive in the manner that Honda likes to portray itself, perhaps in working with GoldwingDocs.com to come to a happy arrangement maybe by charging a small fee for each down load (just an idea), an enormous amount of ill feeling and downright anger has been generated right round the world by this utterly unnecessary and incredibly short-sighted action. In closing; I bought one of the first GL1000s in the UK in 1975 and have maintained an interest in them ever since due to the quality of both the bike and the company. I now have a much modified 1976 and a totally stock 1978 and run a small online business supplying parts for the four cylinder Wings. I will continue to do so in spite of this effort to make life difficult for myself, and others like me. The products are still very worthy of admiration but I'm afraid in my eyes the company is much less so. Legally you may have every right to do as you did, but morally your badly thought out action is reprehensible and incomprehensible. This is very sad, as you have just brought out a bike that I would seriously have considered buying, in the new CB. This bike is going back to the sort of machinery that people of my age want, and that Honda do so well. However, this has made me so angry that no new Honda products of any description will be bought either by me or my family, until Honda cease to engage in these harassing actions and go back to being the kind of company that people want to buy from. I will also be recommending to anyone thinking of such a purchase that they reconsider their position on that. I was going to address a copy of this to the Customer Relations Dept but it seems Honda don't do Customer Relations, only Customer Support. It would seem to a great many people that they don't do that either! Yours sincerely, _____________________________________ To all members of the Steve Saunders Forum, Please consider sending one of the above letters, or your own, to Honda. If enough of us (and there a A LOT of us) contact Honda and complain, this harassment may stop. For further information about GoldWingDocs response, keep reading: (The following is what you see after selecting a manual at GoldWingDocs) Where is this document? On March 8, 2010, we received a request from Honda asking that we remove virtually all of the downloadable Honda manuals from our web site. This includes almost every manual on the site - the majority of which are over twenty years old, and are not available for sale anywhere, at any price. It includes Owners Manuals for 20 and 30 year old motorcycles - motorcycles whose manuals have long since been lost, and whose new owners come to goldwingdocs.com, looking for information to safely operate their motorcycles. While we don't agree with Honda's decision, we have complied with Honda's request. We would however, like to ask a quick favor of you. We would ask you to contact Honda Motorcycle, and let them know just what you think of this decision. There are over ten thousand registered users who have benefited from goldwingdocs.com - if even a slight fraction of those users contact Honda Motorcycle, it may have an effect on their decisions going forward, and their support of classic Honda motorcycles. We appreciate it, and so do all the owners of classic Goldwings, who have come to rely on goldwingdocs.com for their safety and maintenance information! Here is their contact information: Motorcycle Division American Honda Motor Co., Inc. Mail stop: 100-4C-7B P.O. Box 2200 Torrance, CA 90509-2200 Telephone: (866) 784-1870 Fax: (310) 224-6095 The original letter, followed by our response, is below: To Whom It May Concern, Honda produces and distributes motorcycle service manuals for which Honda owns a U.S. copyright. See 17 U.S.C. § 106. Indeed, the first page of the manual clearly displays a copyright notice. We have learned that these links and their members have - without authorization from Honda - copied Honda's service/repair manuals and are offering them on http://www.goldwingdocs.com. This conduct directly infringes Honda's exclusive rights under the Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. § 101 et seq., and must cease immediately. Accordingly, Honda hereby demands that goldwingdocs remove or disable access to the following materials: (list of almost all manuals here) Regards, Dyan Finguerra-DuCharme | WilmerHale 399 Park Avenue New York, NY 10022 USA +1 212 937 7203 (t) +1 212 230 8888 (f) dyan.finguerra-ducharme@wilmerhale.com Our response: Dear Ms. Finguerra-DuCharme, I am in receipt of your email below, and have made plans to comply with your request. I have spoken with my web designer, and he said he can have the documents you quote below removed late today or early tomorrow. That said, I would wish to bring to your attention 17 U.S.C. § 107 defining fair use, which includes (in part) these definitions: 1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes 2. The nature of the copyrighted work 3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole 4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work I would like to visit the applicability of each of these definitions as it pertains to the documents in question. 1. Purpose and character of the use: The use of the manuals on goldwingdocs.com is decidedly non-commercial and non-profit. In fact, the operation of the web site is done at a financial loss, as a labor of love. It is most certainly provided in an educational context, as is made clear by the accompanying "how to" articles and extensive user forum that exist alongside the manuals on the web site. The documents on goldwingdocs.com are utilized as an educational reference worldwide, as can be evidenced by the thousands of motorcycle-themed web sites and online forums that refer to goldwingdocs.com. 2. The nature of the copyrighted work consists largely of out-of-print and commercially unavailable texts. Many of these documents have been out of print for close to thirty years and are not available for purchase anywhere, at any price. These manuals are the sole source of information on the safe operation and repair of classic Honda Goldwing motorcycles. As can be evidenced across the entire Internet, Many "new owners" of classic 20 and 30 year old Honda Goldwing motorcycles utilize goldwingdocs.com as their sole source of long-lost owners manuals, in order to allow them to operate their Honda motorcycles safely. 3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole: there is no question that this clause does not apply; by definition the reference and owners manuals must be complete in order to make them useful, and to ensure the safety of the user. 4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work: as mentioned earlier, there is no market presently existing of the majority of the documents in question, therefore, there is no effect on the value of the documents. They have not been produced in many (in some case in excess of thirty) years, are not available to be purchased even in used format, and to my knowledge, based upon Honda's current practice of abandoning service and support for any motorcycles it produces in excess of ten years old, no current plans to produce and re-release these manuals. In addition, the majority of the documents in question are crude scans of original documents - acceptable for use as an occasional reference on a computer screen, but of entirely unacceptable quality to print and use as a bound, printed manual - and certainly no challenge to the potential market for a new, printed and bound manual. I would appreciate it if you would ask Honda of America to reconsider its position on the removal of these documents. We would be more than amenable to work with Honda to promote Goldwings and support the classic Goldwing owners in any way possible, as we have been doing over the past few years. I would also have you make them aware of the considerable backlash and ill will towards Honda that this move on their part has already generated in the online community - a community which consists almost entirely of Goldwing owners, traditionally financially stable motorcycle enthusiasts who are prime candidates to be future Honda customers. cc: Honda of America Customer Relations Last edited on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 12:46 am by Placerville ____________________ Guy Placerville "Hangtown" CA. "Use it up, wear it out. Make do, or do without." |
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 12:43 am | 56th Post |
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clarkjh wrote: I didn't see the owner's manual for my 1974 CB550 on helminc.comIs this the one you need? Hoss Last edited on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 12:44 am by cvhoss |
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 12:53 am | 57th Post |
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cvhoss wrote: clarkjh wrote:Nope, that's for the 450. I have a first year production CB550. Some call them a K0 like the fist CB750 in 69. I was lucky, I have the owners manual from 74. Just saying that that reprinter doesn't have it.I didn't see the owner's manual for my 1974 CB550 on helminc.comIs this the one you need? James
____________________ Never ride faster then your guardian angle can fly. Current Bikes 1974 Honda CB550, 40000 Miles. 1980 GL1100 Interstate, 102789 KM when purchased. |
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 12:57 am | 58th Post |
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You're late http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/forum4/87634.html
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 12:58 am | 59th Post |
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ccsailor wrote: You're late
____________________ Yesterday is for memories! Today is for making memories! Tomorrow is a concept that does not exist! What are you waiting for? ... Sam-n-Elaine Just livin' the dream!!!!! Just another day in paradise!!!!! Honor above all else!!!!! Thank you Dylan Saunders for the layout of my greeting!!!! |
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 01:09 am | 60th Post |
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Has anyone tried contacting Helm to ask if they have the books, just don't have them posted on their page? Or if they have the rights, and the ability to reproduce and sell the books they don't have listed?
____________________ Mike Kramer "Learn from the past, set vivid, detailed goals for the future, and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control: Now." Denis Waitley |
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