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dan filipi
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 02:29 pm | 21st Post |
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No tricky, only one switch (or relay) is needed.
It's purpose in life is to start or stop the flow of electricity, just like a water faucet starts and stops water flow.
The current on either wire is the same, in this case 6 amps on start up.
What I meant to demonstrate in the video was the amount of current flow is the same (the same 6 amps) whether a switch is put on the positive side of the load, or the negative side of the load.
Load being the current as expressed in amps or watts or the amount of water flowing thru a water pipe.
Last edited on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 03:11 pm by dan filipi
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1983 GL1100 Interstate
http://classicgoldwings.com
A Honda Goldwing GL1100 Specific website
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tricky
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 11:24 pm | 22nd Post |
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If your telling me the fan motor switch requires a relay on the negative side, would not the compressor motor for the air horn require a relay for the negative side? Is there a difference in the motor types?
And if so, why would the manufacturer not supply the bike with a relay? or Fram the maker of the air horns supply two relays one for the positive side and one for the negative side?
Another question, if the fan motor is drawing 2-5 amps, the horn compressor motor is drawing possibly 25+ amps (it does blow a 20 amp fuse) Fram supplies a 30 amp relay, going by your analogy the compressor motor would require the relay even more so.
Honda decreed that the wire going from the fan is a ground wire and the only break in the circuit is a simple switch activated by heat.
According to your theory every ground wire would require a relay, at least thats the way I am reading it. Could be I am simple
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dan filipi
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 11:54 pm | 23rd Post |
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Only one relay would be needed since the positive side of the fan is always "hot", unswitched.
The thermo switch supplies the ground path when it closes to turn the fan on.
In the case of the air compressor, the reverse is true, the compressor is always connected to ground but the positive lead is switched.
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1983 GL1100 Interstate
http://classicgoldwings.com
A Honda Goldwing GL1100 Specific website
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sandiegobrass
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 12:40 am | 24th Post |
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tricky wrote: ... According to your theory every ground wire would require a relay, at least thats the way I am reading it. Could be I am simple When a switch is used to switch a load, it can be put in the positive side or the negative side, but it would be for specific purposes that it would be put on both (although it is often done)... and the same switch rating is required in either place.... Some circuits on the wing are switched on the positive side and some on the negative... and some on both... The brake circuit is in the positive side.. the horns are in the negative side and the starter relay circuit has switches in both (the ignition, the starter button on the plus and the neutral or clutch on the negative... )
For low voltage circuits, there is little difference in safety, but for high voltage circuits, you will almost always find the positive switched because, otherwise the whole circuit is active/hot... for example, in house AC circuits, it is against code to switch only a ground.. you must switch the active/hot side (or both)...
Hope this helps..  SDB/Jim
Last edited on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 12:53 am by sandiegobrass
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SDB/Jim
2000 GL1500SE
1983 GL1100I
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Temporarily in Indiana
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tricky
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 01:34 am | 25th Post |
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dan filipi wrote: True it supplies the ground but there is still a current flow equal to the load's draw whether it's supplying the positive or the negative.
The thermo switch is switching a load on and off. It's always a good idea to install a relay to lower the load imposed on the switch, a relay requires a couple watts, the fan requires a couple amps.
It may last 20 years without a relay just like the OEM switch but without knowing the switch capacity rating then a relay is an excellent idea.
I obviously am not following this thread, maybe I had a couple of drinks last night..
Yes always use a relay to lower the load on a switch I understand that part.
But I understand you to say that a relay is needed at the thermostatic switch?
A relay requires energy to activate, where and how is the thermostatic switch going to aquire this energy and why bother.
Like I said I obviously dont understand what your meaning
Attachment: relay.jpg (Downloaded 154 times)
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exavid
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 01:41 am | 26th Post |
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| I'd argue that a relay isn't needed at all for the thermostatic switch. The fan(s) don't draw all that much current and the thermo switch was designed with a large margin of current capacity in it's contacts. Relays are good where they are needed but adding them in circuits where they aren't necessary compilcates wiring and any added component increases the chance of a system failure. It's always a deal with the devil, you can improve one thing but have to pay a price somewhere else. There is no free lunch.
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Paul W. 1993 Aspencade 1982 Aspencade
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dan filipi
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 02:55 am | 27th Post |
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just wondering ---anyone know if the thermo switch activets a relay on the geo? what im thinking is current draw though the thermo switch. interresting ? ?
What originally got me started about a relay was that question posed by wda.
The fact is, if the switch rating of that Geo switch is unknown, it's impossible to accurately say whether or not a relay is needed.
It could very well be rated high enough to withstand the GW fan load but it's possible it's rated only to activate a relay. There is a big difference in the current requirement of these 2 scenarios.
The trend for a long time in autos has been more and more to using relays to switch loads, that is why I question it. There are also other reasons for using relays but I'm not going to get into that here.
So what I'm going to do is research what that Geo thermo switch's contacts are rated at carrying. When I need one then I'll know if I need to use a relay or not.
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1983 GL1100 Interstate
http://classicgoldwings.com
A Honda Goldwing GL1100 Specific website
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Peterbylt
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 03:02 am | 28th Post |
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The thermal switch has worked perfectly so far. Honda did not see the need to put a relay in the circuit.
The only problem that I can see and could experience is if the contacts are inferior to the original honda switch in which case the thermal switch will stop functioning in a short time or maybe the switch will last as long or longer than the original.
Either way I will post here if it fails and if does I am out $16.95 and will have to start using the bypass toggle again.
I do not see any safety issues due to the positioning and purpose of said switch.
Peter
Last edited on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 07:32 am by Peterbylt
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81 GL1100
75 550F
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tricky
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 03:50 am | 29th Post |
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I cannot see why you would have any problems with it at all. I am glad you posted it I think it will save everyone who wants to use it quite a bit of cash...... it's always better to put the cash into the tank and ride
Last edited on Wed Feb 6th, 2008 04:17 pm by tricky
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wda-83wing
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 04:53 pm | 30th Post |
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 just found out the 94 geo does have a fan motor relay. take it for what its worth. like i said in my earlyer post--just wondering.
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1979 gl1000 dressed --back to naked
1980 gl1100 interstate --side lined
1983 gl1100 interstate the fastest color--RED
retiered trucker---going to see it again ----on 2 wheels---love it--love it--- love it
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tricky
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 04:04 pm | 31st Post |
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It depends on the amperage draw of the fan motor. The fan motor fuse on the 85 aspy is 10 amp, I replaced my fan with an 8" permacool electric fan which draws 4.5 but calls for a 30 amp fuse, I have never had any problem using the 10 amp.
I think the 30 amp is overkill and if one wanted to put in a relay that would be fine. But if you followed the end of the thread someone called for a relay on the the thermal fan switch, this is not carrying a load it is merely making and breaking the ground wire from the fan, the load already having been taken up and converted into wind and noise by the fan motor.
Last edited on Wed Feb 6th, 2008 04:19 pm by tricky
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exavid
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 02:24 am | 32nd Post |
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tricky wrote: But if you followed the end of the thread someone called for a relay on the the thermal fan switch, this is not carrying a load it is merely making and breaking the ground wire from the fan, the load already having been taken up and converted into wind and noise by the fan motor.
Not quite true, the current in a circuit is basically the same at all points. The ground terminal of a circuit sees the same current as the source terminal. All points in the wiring, through the fan motor and thermostatic switch see the same current. Voltage and power distribution is a different story. All of the voltage is dropped across the thermostatic switch when the switch is open. When it's closed most of the voltage other than the little bit lost in the wiring and switch contacts is dropped across the fan motor. Pretty much the same for power distribution.
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If you can't ride, fly or sail it, why bother?
Paul W. 1993 Aspencade 1982 Aspencade
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tricky
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 03:28 am | 33rd Post |
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"Quote"
The answer lies in the distinction between power and current. Yes, power is "consumed" in operating the motor (actually, it's transformed into motion, heat, and noise). That's different than current. Current is just the number of electrons flowing through the wire, and that is constant at every point in the circuit. What happens when electrical work is done is that there is a "voltage drop" across the load, so the electrons flowing out of the motor have less "pressure" to move things than those flowing in. Think of it like a water mill -- the same amount of water flows into the upper buckets as flows out of the lower buckets, but the lower buckets have less potential energy: they've lost it pushing the wheel.
"Unquote"
We are seeing an increase in failure of components due to age, the more credit to the engineers who designed the bike and it's parts.
22+ years and thousands of miles, we are lucky these parts last as long as they do.
Last edited on Thu Feb 7th, 2008 03:33 am by tricky
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tricky
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 03:39 am | 34th Post |
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exavid wrote: tricky wrote: But if you followed the end of the thread someone called for a relay on the the thermal fan switch, this is not carrying a load it is merely making and breaking the ground wire from the fan, the load already having been taken up and converted into wind and noise by the fan motor.
Not quite true, the current in a circuit is basically the same at all points. The ground terminal of a circuit sees the same current as the source terminal. All points in the wiring, through the fan motor and thermostatic switch see the same current. Voltage and power distribution is a different story. All of the voltage is dropped across the thermostatic switch when the switch is open. When it's closed most of the voltage other than the little bit lost in the wiring and switch contacts is dropped across the fan motor. Pretty much the same for power
distribution. If your telling me the same amount of energy is coming out of the fan motor as going in, I think you have solved the age old puzzle of perpetual motion or energy.
current and voltage in.. current and little voltage out.
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sandiegobrass
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 02:23 pm | 35th Post |
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tricky wrote: exavid wrote: tricky wrote: But if you followed the end of the thread someone called for a relay on the the thermal fan switch, this is not carrying a load it is merely making and breaking the ground wire from the fan, the load already having been taken up and converted into wind and noise by the fan motor.
Not quite true, the current in a circuit is basically the same at all points. The ground terminal of a circuit sees the same current as the source terminal. All points in the wiring, through the fan motor and thermostatic switch see the same current. Voltage and power distribution is a different story. All of the voltage is dropped across the thermostatic switch when the switch is open. When it's closed most of the voltage other than the little bit lost in the wiring and switch contacts is dropped across the fan motor. Pretty much the same for power distribution. If your telling me the same amount of energy is coming out of the fan motor as going in, I think you have solved the age old puzzle of perpetual motion or energy.
current and voltage in.. current and little voltage out.
????That is not the way I understood what he wrote.. in fact, what exavid said was "most of the voltage.... is dropped across the fan motor" that means most of the power is "used" at the motor, not that "the same amount of energy is coming out of the fan motor as going in"..
SDB/Jim
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SDB/Jim
2000 GL1500SE
1983 GL1100I
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Temporarily in Indiana
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exavid
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 04:10 pm | 36th Post |
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Try wiring up a series DC circuit with a switch, a light bulb and another switch. Connect this across a source. First close both switches and measure the voltage drop across both. It will be the same assuming the two switches have the same slight resistance. Open either one and the full voltage of the source will be present. The fact that one is connected closer to the ground or return path to the source is irrelevant. Arcing across the switch contacts during operation will be the same in both switches. Power is equal to current times voltage (P=IE)in a DC circuit disregarding power factor involved with inductive or capacitive loads. Since the motor in the circuit is by far the largest resistance in the circuit (P=I2R) tells us that power indeed is consumed by the motor and very little in the switches since they offer very little resistance when closed. No argument there. I wasn't implying that the same energy, or power, was being returned to the source. What I am saying is that the electrical stress, arcing, heating, etc. will occur to the switch whether it's in the side of the motor circuit connected to the +12V side or the ground side of the motor. Makes absolutely no difference to the the switch.
Just for the record, I'll bet $50 that the switching contacts on the Geo, or just about any thermostatically switched fan circuit are going to be about the same current capability. Basically the same contact area and contact separation when open. The fan motor is basically an inductive load and there is going to be some arcing when the circuit is opened to shut off the fan. To get decent life span on the contacts they have to be large enough to stand years of erosion from the arcing that's always going to be present. Ergo they are going to provide a fairly good margin for what ever current is being drawn through them. Since the Goldwing's rather small engine (in automotive terms) and light loading generates a lot less heat than an automobile in normal use the fan is going to need a good bit less power. Therefore it will need smaller switching contacts to operate. For that reason it stands to logic that an automotive thermostatic switch will work fine without a relay. I hope someone sticks one in and we can have some empiric proof.
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If you can't ride, fly or sail it, why bother?
Paul W. 1993 Aspencade 1982 Aspencade
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ARKnapp
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 09:01 pm | 37th Post |
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Relays are pilot devices to 10 amps beyond 10 amps you use contactors both relays and contactors have a separate coil... that is operated by another device to make the contactor or relay turn off and on, open close. So if you were to replace the fan operating switch with a contactor you would have the relay operate the fan and the fan switch would operate the relay. In this way, the relay draws a certain amount of amps. Say one or two amps and the switch, operating the relay would only see this amount of amps, but the relay operating the fan would have 5 6 or 7 amps, going through it.
This is similar to an SCR triggering circuit. A small triggering circuit turns the SCR on, and the SCR itself can operate large amounts of current. But unlike the relay or contactor, the SCR turns itself off. A similar thing is a motor starter, either single phase or three-phase, being operated by a single pushbutton on/off switch.
remember that if the cooling fan is a DC motorized fan there is minimal in rush current. Unlike an AC motor that has power factor and phase differences to worry about, and higher inrush starting currents as high as 700 to 800%, but are generally fused at 300%.
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A.R.Knapp-1980 GL1100 Skype--ARKnapp123--Toronto Canada Time Zone
Naked Wing all dressed up, Hondaline fairing, bags, trunk and nothing else.
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Motorcycle Pete
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Posted: Fri Feb 8th, 2008 02:06 am | 38th Post |
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Great tip- I have the same problem, the same year. Thanks for saving me $70!  Will have a party, here, with the balance.... Thank you!
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Motorcycle Pete
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1998 ST1100 British Racing Green- my poor UK lass- always "rode hard and put up wet"!
1982 VF750S-for sportiness sake
1981 GL1100 Interstate, 1979 GL1000
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Peterbylt
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 02:39 am | 39th Post |
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Just for the record, I now have over a thousand miles since I installed the Geo switch using the stock Honda wiring without a relay and it is still working perfectly.
Peter
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81 GL1100
75 550F
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wda-83wing
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 02:57 pm | 40th Post |
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| so far so good. post results after the summer has gone by. that should be enough time test .
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1979 gl1000 dressed --back to naked
1980 gl1100 interstate --side lined
1983 gl1100 interstate the fastest color--RED
retiered trucker---going to see it again ----on 2 wheels---love it--love it--- love it
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