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ARKnapp
Senior Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 10:52 pm | 1st Post |
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Starter motor
The starter motor for the 1100 is a DC series connection motor about 1 hp or 750 W with a range of 10 to 15 V DC. Being a series wound motor, it has the capability of operating at much higher loads than it's rated 1 hp. Series wound motors can be loaded up to 10 times their rating, but typically, starting type motors range about three times their normal horsepower. An 1100 starting motor under good conditions would operate around 150 A at start up.
Although the motor draws up to 150 amps it only does so at the very beginning of its start cycle. As soon as a motor goes from stop to start, the amount of torque that is developed, is the high, as soon as motion enters the revolving motor and the amount of current rises, but not as fast as the toque, about squared of current. But if the motor contacts, higher resistance, it starts drawing higher current to match the torque required to rurn the greater load. But the 1100 has no protection on the current it can draw. The bike has a main circuit of 30 amps, but this fuse takes its power from the primary side of the battery joined at the hot side of the starting relay, so the 30 amp fuse protects wiring on the downside of this fuse. Everything on the downside of this 30 A fuse is protected, but the larger wire going to the starter is not, nor is the starter motor.
As the diagram above indicates power from the positive of the battery goes to the input of the relay when the relay is energized it closes the main contacts, and the power goes directly into the motor. So there is nothing protecting how much the motor draws.
The fact that the motor is a series wound device, along with the knowledge that you only push the start button for a short time and then allow the starter to cool is what is mostly saving the motor. Considering how many 1100s are on the road and considering that most are still working, this system is pretty good. Most devices using series motors are those devices that require constant human intervention starters and cranes for example.
So what happens over time, to cause a lot of motors on 1100s to stop working or to be intermittent when they do work?
The downfall of starting motors
Starting motors will work themselves to death, because there is no inherent built-in safety device to protect them from themselves. The motor assembly clutches, over spin devices and even the internal combustion engine that they are trying to start all play in the demise of the starter. They simply work themselves to death for various reasons; overuse, lack of maintenance, dying batteries, poor connections.
We know to engage the starter motors for only seconds at a time. These motors can draw between a hundred and hundred and fifty amps when brought to life, and it takes short time for this amount of current to heat up the motor and the surrounding area. It's no wonder that some time, should you lapse to allow partial cooling, but what happens if we do not allow this cooling. in short…failure.
The motor is a rotating device with field, field coils, armature, armature coils, commutators, brushes and connecting wires and cables. The insulator on magnetic wire for the most part is some form of varnish, the insulator between commutators segments, coils and coil faces can also be varnish and paper. The operating of a DC series wound motor is an inherently hot and heavy work. If overworked or over used, the motor will simply burn up the combination of paper and varnish. But if operated correctly, and without the punishing effects of overuse, these motors last a lifetime.
As in any electric motor the greatest amount of torque is developed from a stop position to a running position. This is a normal use of an electric motor. Because starter motors are short running motors with no concern for speed range control they develop extremely high torque, and they only work as a starting motor. When they have higher loads attached to them the motor draws more current, but the torque developed is a square of the amps up until its maximum is reached by design. Putting a starting motor on the bench and having it run freeload is no way to tell if it is good, the motor must be loaded to its designed load. In fact, running a DC series wound motor under no-load conditions can cause the motor to freewheel and begin running in excess of safe speeds. In fact, under these conditions, the motor can run so fast it can blow itself apart. These motors must be attached to a load at all times.
Often, when starter motors are installed they must be shimmed and balanced. Failure to remount these motors with out their proper shims or counterbalancing weights will cause self- destruction. Because of the high torque values the motor must run true and square. Torque develops opposite to the direction of turning and this torque will bind the motor if it is crooked or offset to the output shaft, so be very careful when disassembling and reassembling, all shims, spacers must be reinstalled.
When a motor has been abused and has gone to the heat, cool cycle of an overuse attempt, the failure of the motor is imminent. This is often done by blatant intermittent running, high speed non-engaging running or a stalling condition. Why?
The characteristics of the motor under high heat conditions, changes the kilowatts draw of that motor and this changes the actual size or HP of the motor and this alters the amount of work that motor can safely do. This is often displayed as no starting attempt when the engine is hot.
And when the motor changes from its design everything about the motor and its supply network changes because now that motor usually needs more energy to do the same amount of work it did.
Changes that take place when a starter motor is failing
So now we know changes do take place, slowly at first and then bang… left stranded.
A starter switch
A pilot control device; a small pushbutton normally open switch with a normally closed auxiliary switch controlling the headlight. When pushed, the open contacts close to engage the starting relay and the closed contacts open to shut off the headlight, while the pushbutton is pushed.
Often, the pushbutton gets dirty, and sticks and causes the relay to stay energized or the headlight to stay off. Cleaning with a solvent and compressed air often alleviates the problem.
D Control relay, starter relay--- is also a pilot control. It allows a small pushbutton to start a fairly large motor. The relay has main contacts, joining the positive of the battery through the main contacts to a contact with a large wire going directly to the motor. When the relay is energized this main contact closes, while the pushbutton is held closed. The relay may have smaller contacts or auxiliary contacts that operate other devices at the same time or turn other devices off. It all depends on whether the contacts are open or closed. This relay also has the main fuse of 30 amps wired in to control the bikes electrical control system. This fuse has been known to disintegrate and cause intermittent electrical total on or off conditions.
A relay is a device that is controlled by an on or off type switch. To do this relays can have many switches that are arranged normally open normally closed timed to open timed to close with a power using part call the coil. The coil is mechanically linked to the contact arrangements so that when the coil is energized the contacts change. These devices can be electromechanical or electronic or even electronic and air operated. The coil of these relays usually draws less than 5 amps, but the controlled switching can be 10 amps to 100 amps or more.
The Starter Motor
The biggest consumer of energy is this motor, but the time for consumption is a rated in seconds. The motor has a positive terminal stud, where the main positive electrical cable coming from the starting relay is mounted. Be sure, when disconnecting or tightening this nut fastener to the stud that you never turn the stud into the motor. Doing so will loosen off the connection inside the motor and you will have to pull the motor to repair the connection.
H Negative Ground
One of the biggest overlooked electrical connections on the bike, the negative ground connection simply is the frame of the motorcycle. It has a negative potential, because the battery negative post is grounded to the frame. The effect that this does is simply saves wire going to each and every electrical device that consumes power. But the biggest consumption of power is drawn by a starter, the positive electrical part is the cable, but the return side is the bikes physical ground; you must ensure that the ground connections are big enough, and stable enough and clean enough to take the amount of current going to the starter.
G + Positive Feed Cable
This cable is as important as the ground cable or ground connection. The positive feed from the battery goes along this cable directly to the motor. If the cable is worn, overheated, has poor insulation or even the copper inside the cable has diminished, the positive feed cable should be replaced. The connections from the starting relay and at the starter itself should be clean and tight. If anything is amiss it must be repaired. This cable will get very hot if anything is wrong with it.
C Battery
The battery is used as a source of power to start the motorcycle. Once the motorcycle is running the alternator feeds power to the battery. The control system between the alternator, and the battery, the regulator and the rectifier control the battery voltage. Ohms law states that E equals IR and because this is true the control of the voltage controls the amount of current. This law is true, as long as R remains constant, but if the amount of resistance with in the bikes he electrical system changes. Both E and I will change.
The batteries to the starter systems are relatively simple devices, but they can be complex. When too many variables come into the mix, such as dirty connections, bad wires and faulty batteries almost all laws depending on Ohm do not relate. And this is why many Goldwing riders have many starter problems.
Troubleshooting 101
Key in the ignition, choke pulled out, kill switch on, transmission in neutral, clutch pulled in, quick visual check all around, hit the start switch…
… if you're fortunate and if you've maintained the bike it starts up, you slowly let the clutch out, and you slowly push the choke in. But if it spurts farts pops and then sits there dead, what do you do? Hope and pray! Call someone to help!
If your bike is known to not start the first time and every time you may have a problem.
We are going to look at the all electrics, from a battery to the controls to the starter and we are going to assume that the bike is in tune, cylinders balanced, fuel is good, ignition condition is good, air filter is good...so what’s left? We could have a starting problem with the starter and all things connected to it.
Components
PB starting button on the handle bar, interconnecting wires, the starting relay, interconnecting wires, big wires from battery to relay to motor, the starting motor, the negative side of the system, interlocks like clutch, neutral switch and interconnecting wires. Also in this troubleshooting 101 we will look at the ignition switch.
To start with the ignition switch is our source for control, does it turn on, and does it turn off does it do this all the time. And finally does it turn on the parking light in the rear. We must check each position that the switch operates in. With the bike off and parked turn the switch to the farthest left, and with the handlebars turned to the extreme left or right does the handlebars lock? Check the position of the locking Rod.
 Turn the key cylinder right, with a slight raise of the key once does the lock come off, can you remove the switch key, are any lights being displayed.
Turn the key once more to the right, do the oil neutral light come on, are you able to use the flashing lights. Can you pull the switch key out? Turn the key once more to the right do the lights go off and does the rear light come on. Remember, if you park the bike with the brake lights on you could come back to a dead battery.
If all is a go, we will turn the ignition with the oil, and neutral lights on. Pull the clutch in and push the start button, with the choke out, and the bike starts upon pushing the start button. So far so good, but if nothing happens, no clicks no whir and we have to find out why.
When the pushbutton is pushed the headlight should go off and the relay that operates the motor starter should make noise, a click. The neutral switch has to be energized or the clutch pulled in. The bike can be in gear but the clutch, has to be pulled in. If the relay makes a clicking noise then the wiring is correct. If all you get is a clicking noise a further check is needed.
Although the bike is in good shape it is possible that the battery is dying. Act quick check at the battery main posts with a voltmeter will give us a clue. A12 volt battery at rest, should indicate at the least 12 V, but it is better if the voltage is somewhere around 12.5 V. , a fully charged battery should read 12.7 to 13.5 depending on how long it has been sitting since charged. If your battery reads less than 12 V it is on death’s door.
We then charge the battery with an external to the bike, battery charger, and when the battery charger says it is fully charged we try to start a bike. If the bike starts, we have found the reason, but we do not know why the battery is dying.
Perhaps, when we examined the battery condition the battery was still fully charged. In this case, we could have bad connections, dirty connections, bad wiring, bad neutral switch, bad clutch switch or even a faulty relay. Each and every component must be checked and verified okay. The likelihood the wiring is faulty varies with age and care. Connections: remove connections spray contact cleaner or brake cleaner between the female and male parts and apply connector at least three times removing it each time and at the very end blowing compressed air into the connections of both male and female. Then do a final assembly. The on/off has a chance to scrape oxides of the two connecting parts, the air blows the dirt out
The relay has two main big connectors that hold the larger wire for the starter, check the connections and the contact on these big terminals. The smaller connections for auxiliary control and for 12 V coil control should also be verified. A good contacts reading for the large and small contacts should be close to zero ohms. Use a known good ohmmeter, multimeter and keep flesh from your hands off the open probes. The human body offers resistance and impedance, so you must be clear of your testing.
Individual components can be tested with a multimeter, the testing must verify resistance of switching devices along with integrity of coil relays. The biggest relay, the starter relay has to have enough contact area and good contact surfaces to conduct the 100 A load. With too small an area the amount of amps carried by the relay with choke the life out of the starter. If the starter receives less than it draws, it will put out less work, and possibly not start the bike. The shape of the connectors on the relay and the motor itself could cause a no start condition. The ground connections must be as good , clean and tight as the main positive connections, remember electricity always flows back to the source, the object using the electricity does not actually suck it up, it uses it and then returns it. If it cannot return the potential back to source then it won’t work.
So if the wires are shot, the connections dirty, the devices corroded, poor connections, improper use, poor grounds, lousy battery worn out alternator, horns rusted together…there may be a problem, maybe you’d be lucky if it doesn’t start.
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ARKnapp
Senior Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 11:16 pm | 2nd Post |
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Starter relay is just a big relay since it has to hadle 100 Amps
Attachment: Starter 1.GIF (Downloaded 177 times)
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ARKnapp
Senior Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 11:17 pm | 3rd Post |
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Refering to above
Attachment: Starter 2.GIF (Downloaded 176 times)
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ARKnapp
Senior Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 11:18 pm | 4th Post |
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| More Attachment: Starter 3.GIF (Downloaded 174 times)
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ARKnapp
Senior Guru
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 11:19 pm | 5th Post |
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What goes in must go out
Attachment: Starter 4.GIF (Downloaded 176 times)
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Whiskerfish
Senior Guru
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 03:38 am | 6th Post |
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This needs to go to the reference forum. I think we may need this tomorrow and the next day and the next day etc etc etc etc
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Whiskerfish
1978/9 Nekid Streetfighter 50k miles
1978 Dressed Daily Rider w/150k plus miles
1976 Windjammer dressed SOLD
1975 Nekid Recently Acquired (next street bike project)
1975 Nekid 22k miles running, Currently use as engine test stand
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ARKnapp
Senior Guru
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 06:47 pm | 7th Post |
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I agree with you whiserfish but I do not have access to FAQ, so Steve has to do it. I see the same type questions so hopefully this will help
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maplewingnut
Very Active Member
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Posted: Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 04:30 am | 8th Post |
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Very informative.
Thank you.
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1975 Honda CB125S
1977 Honda CD175
1981 Honda CB650
1982 Honda GL1100 Aspencade
See the progression?? I still got two whole decades to look forward to!!
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