3 banger on start up - Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums

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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 07:36 AM Thread Starter
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Almost ever since I got my bike, it has not been firing on all four on startup. I always apply full enrichment for start and bleed it off as I am able, and although it fires right away, one cylinder does not kick in for about 10-15 seconds. Then it starts to sparatically fire and will eventually kick in and be just fine. All plugs look the same. Can this be simply one carb set a bit too lean or can it be spark.

I know, the old quandry again.

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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 07:55 AM
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Why not try to isolate the cylinder,(check for header temp right at start-up), with-out getting burnt. Let the engine cool so it will miss on restart. This time, before starting-pull and re-attach the plug and check for spark on the offending cylinder.

Not real high- tech, but may help to get you started in the trouble-shooting.

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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Shooter wrote:
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Why not try to isolate the cylinder,(check for header temp right at start-up), with-out getting burnt. Let the engine cool so it will miss on restart. This time, before starting-pull and re-attach the plug and check for spark on the offending cylinder.

Not real high- tech, but may help to get you started in the trouble-shooting.

Good idea Shooter, I will try that. Thanks



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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 01:23 PM
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Pretty typical of a spark plug that needs replacement.

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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-12-2005, 02:33 PM
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Hawker22 wrote:
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Almost ever since I got my bike, it has not been firing on all four on startup. I always apply full enrichment for start and bleed it off as I am able, and although it fires right away, one cylinder does not kick in for about 10-15 seconds. Then it starts to sparatically fire and will eventually kick in and be just fine. All plugs look the same. Can this be simply one carb set a bit too lean or can it be spark.

I know, the old quandry again.
Hawker,
That could be about anything.. As Paul said it just might be as simple as a spark plug problem, (like hair line crack in the porcelain, or slight cold fuel fouling).. Could also be a seeping cylinder head gasket allowing a slight amount of coolant into the cylinder & causing a misfire until it cleans out after a few strokes).. Could also be a plug wire acting up due to resistance or a slight leak..

You might want to look at the carb enrichener adjustment on all carbs (or if you isolate the faulty cylinder, the carb on that cylinder), maybe one of your carb enricheners isn’t pulling open far enough..

If the cylinder that is acting up is farthest from the fuel inlet to the carbs that carb might be low on fuel at start-up & takes a second or so to completely fill..

If the cylinder/carb that is causing the misfire is the carb with all the vacuum hoses to it maybe the hoses are filling with fuel during the post ride hot soak or leaking enough vacuum to cause it to go lean during start up..

If your bike has a pulse air system it’s possible you have one exhaust check valve hanging open a short while at start up & allowing exhaust gas to back up into the intake manifold.

Another possibility is one of your hydraulic valve lifters is bleeding down at night & causing a lazy valve opening until it runs a short time & pumps the lifter back up.

It could also be ignition or pulse generator related but that usually causes 2 cylinders to act up not one.. On the same note, it might be low coil supply voltage & the problem goes away as soon as the charging system kicks in after the engine RPM’s come up..

If it gives you rythematic popping into the intake as it misfires that usually says lean, so you could very well have a lean set pilot needle, or slight plugging of one of the pilot jet channels.. As a test, maybe try opening each pilot jet needle 1 extra turn (do one carb at a time) & see if that has an effect on your problem..

Other than that, maybe a slight intake manifold vacuum leak or worn intake valve guide (oils up & seals after start-up..

Does it make any difference if the bike is started on the side stand or center stand? How about if it’s started for a few seconds after it cools down, then shut down for the night (that should leave filled carbs as the engine heat won’t boil the fuel out)..

You might pull all 4 spark plugs, then let it sit all night, then crank it cold with no plugs in it & see what comes out each cylinder… While the plugs are out maybe run a cold cranking compression test to see if you have any low cylinders cold..

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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-15-2005, 08:06 PM Thread Starter
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So far, I have not been able to duplicate the problem enough to determine the misfiring cylinderby feeling the header temps. I have pulled the plugs and checked them-they all looked good. I did a hot compression check and got 185 across the board. Cool was 180 psi across.

I lightly seated all my pilot screws-confirm there is only one per carb- and they were all set at about 3 1/2 turns, so I reset them to that. Reason I asked if there was only one is because my Haynes manual says" both screws" The Honda service manual just doesn't really say. I plan to try the RPM drop adjustment and am presently dusting off a couple of old tachs to hook up. Is the purpose of the pilot screw plugs simply to prevent tampering or do they serve another purpose??

The PO told me that the carbs had been gone over by the local Honda shop, but we all know that can be a farce. I may just try to squeeze out the rest of the riding season and then strip them down for a peek.

I have been adding a bit of MMO to each tank for awhile and wonder if this can perhaps cause a problem by knocking off some grunge.

I tried to get a voltage reading off the coil leads but got nothing. Confirm it is the black/white wire that spades onto the right terminals of the coils. I am hoping for a low voltage there so I can use Twisties relay trick.

An ongoing issue.



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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-19-2005, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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I need help. As a follow up to my story, I have ridden the bike over the last two days and it performs great on the roads-pulls good with no hesitation or popping of any sort. BUT this morning, I again got the missing on one pot. I let it go till it was just about to kick in and shut her down for a little feel. Number 4 header was cold and the other 3 were warm--so, I found the culprit. I planned to do my ride and then try to do the RPM drop thing with the pilot screws while it was still hot. I was able to get RPM response to turning the screws on nos 1 and 3, but turning them on the left side on nos 2 and 4 made no diff to the RPM at all-fully seated or as far out as I wanted. I pulled the plugs and both lefts were a bit fouled while the rights were clean and of good colour.

I checked the vacuum lines and intake seals as best I could--even threw some wd 40 in there while it was running with no effect. The enrichers are in adjustment as are the carb balancers.

So-- I have no 4 missing on start up--2 and 4 pilot screws making no effect--rather poor idling-- Idling RPM seems to vary ie sometimes it is 960 and sometimes it is 1100--seems that something is varying or only working intermittently that effects the left side.

What is common to the left side??? I think the coils go 1-2 and 3-4 so that seems to rule them out. The vacuum seems to come off of no 4 and nothing off of 2 so why is 2 faulty as well?? I have not yet looked in the air box to check for an air blockage to the left side.

I also swapped no four and no 3 plugs to see if that makes a difference.

I am hoping that someone can jump on this and help me sort this out.



Thanks







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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-19-2005, 07:58 PM
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Hmmm, the only thing I can think of off hand that is common to the left side, is the timing belt. But then you say it doesn't run to bad when its warmed up....hmmmm

Compression test in order, cold and warm?



Edited to correct a typo.

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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-19-2005, 08:35 PM Thread Starter
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wingmaster wrote:
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Hmmm, the only thing I can think of off hand that is common to the left side, is the timing belt. But then you say it doesn't run to bad when its warmed up....hmmmm

Compression test in order, cold and warm?



Edited to correct a typo.

Compression ck done--see post two above yours. Timing belt- perhaps, I just checked and retensioned them and I am positive they are correct. It DOES perform very well on the roads.

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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 10-19-2005, 08:47 PM
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It may not be a problem on both left cylinders. For a starter I'd investigate the ignition cable and plug cap. It might be worth swapping the coils to see if the problem moves, a short or near short to ground in the coil secondary near the #4 end could still provide good spark to the opposite side. You could also swap the spark plugs say from #3 to #4 and vise versa. One other thing I'd try is a compression check while it's acting up to see if a valve may be hanging up.

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