'77 1000 Resurection. - Page 2 - Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums

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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-23-2013, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomswift99 View Post
...the plenum seal is not that expensive... $20 from Randakk, and it is made of viton versus the OEM is probably buna-N (less chemically resistant nitrile rubber)

those carbs are a pain to remove/split/reassemble/install... better to be sure the job is done right the first time
Haha - good to see someone is paying attention. Silicone and gasoline do not mix well together.
I've no need to ever spend a penny buying a product from Randakk when this product performs to aviation standards (which exceed his) and allows for so many other uses beyond this application at a fraction of the cost of his "improved version". A complete waste of time and money for me. Thanks for the suggestion though.

I do use O-rings for the intake elbows from ACE Hardware though. $0.69 each. Have yet to have one fail in three+ years. A substantial savings over Randakk's O-rings. No need for any special compound within the structure of the material "to resist the components of modern gasoline".
Apparently... after 3+ years of using these inexpensive O-rings for the intake elbows and never have one fail, I must be doing something right. They do swell in gasoline. They swell to form a perfect fit though. It has worked for me very well. Try it.

Propaganda in marketing is rampant with these aftermarket GL parts, so be careful in what you read, hear and purchase.


Available at most auto parts stores: I have no financial interest in this product.

Permatex
Ň Aviation Form-AGasket

® No. 3 Sealant

Chemical / Solvent Resistance
The product retains effective properties in contact with water,
ethylene glycol, gasoline, motor oil, transmission fluid and sea
water.

Last edited by AZgl1800; 06-23-2013 at 03:18 PM. Reason: explained that Permatex is not owned by CM85
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-23-2013, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Shadowjack View Post
Gasoline turns silicone sealer into jelly. Burning points is a symptom of bad (wrong-value) condensers.
In this case, it appears that moisture (due to condensation) has taken its toll on the contacts surfaces over the last decade.
Moisture explains the rust inside the housing. Condensation (and possibly the wicking action of a fast temperature variation that comes with our daytime, summer-time storms) is the apparent cause of the moisture over the last 4 to 5 years of its decade-long lay-up while it was outside in the elements.

I'll replacing parts. May go electronic. Undecided.
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-26-2013, 08:58 AM
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Some folks sought my opinion on an issue raised above. In my experience, the only reliable repair for fuel/air leaks at the plenum halves is replacement of the plenum seal. Typically, it’s wise to renew the carb-to-plenum FUEL seals as well as the large “AIR” orings at the same time.

High quality rubber components such as plenum gaskets, carb-to-plenum, orings etc. last indefinitely, but when disturbed - most professional mechanics consider it a “best practice” to renew them. Skipping replacement is generally a false economy since so much labor is required to gain access. “Come-backs” are death to a pro mechanic.

Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket No 3 Sealant is an excellent product. It has useful chemical resistance, temperature and pressure characteristics. For years, I’ve used and recommended it for tasks such as sealing the threads on fuel tank drain plugs as mentioned here: http://www.randakksblog.com/fuel-tan...t-get-kreemed/

According to Permatex ....that product is intended for “close-fitting parts, machined surfaces and threaded connections.” It’s marketed for “close tolerance flanges” and similar applications. It is not ideal where there are large voids, lots of manufacturing “slop” and a minimal number of clamping points ....as in the case of plenums. One of several improvements we made in our latest plenum seal design involved accommodating the wide range of actual dimensions for the plenum seal groove found in the field.

Worse - the thin viscosity LIQUID migrates easily. That has bad implications for the air / fuel passages coursing through an early GoldWing plenum. They can easily be compromised. I’ve seen numerous cases where errant sealant debris made its way to the float valves and caused havoc there. Plus, the next mechanic who revisits such a “repair” will not appreciate the huge, unnecessary mess it makes!

Plenum gaskets are readily available from Honda (nitrile), Saber Cycle (nitrile) and our own VITON version (referenced above). My experience - installation of a proper engineered, formed plenum gasket would be preferable and more reliable than any attempt at repair by a sealant product.

Be aware that there are MANY grades of nitrile (aka BUNA) and VITON available. The materials and manufacturing processes affect the resultant performance characteristics over a rather wide range. That why we use only an automotive grade of VITON (same grade as selected by top auto makers for fuel system use.)

YMMV

Randall Washington (Randakk)
Founder - Randakk's Cycle Shakk, LLC
Pinehurst, NC USA
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-26-2013, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
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Certainly the best option for most would be to replace the seal.
I've confidence in my ability to use the sealant with success.

True, if a void were to be left there would be a concern for me. I plan on leaving the old, shrunken seal within the space it is meant for though. Having used Aviation #3 in many applications before this, I expect as-near-permanent results on par with that of a factory replacement seal equivalent to what you and SC offer for sale.

My impatience (or lack of ability to simply wait for a delivery) has led me to some very useful alternatives over the years. With that, I've found that many of these alternatives can be both relied upon and cost-saving. Sealing this air chamber is a perfect example.

Aside from the bottle of #3 that I already had, 2 4mm washers with cotter pins and 4 O-rings from ACE Hardware to seal the intake elbows, I used a small amount of WD-40 to clean this rack and get it into operational order for less than $5.00.

The economics of this particular factory carburetor rack are excellent.

My downfall with it happened when I initially cleaned it about a year ago. I bench tested the assembled rack with the exact gravity flow fuel container (actually, a brake fluid bottle turned upside down) as seen in the video of the bike. I had no air chamber seal leakage when using it then. Apparently, ..not enough head pressure to reveal the issue or, ...the issue came about due to sitting on a shelf for the last year-and-a-half in the open air. Either way, air chamber seal issue is now a non-issue and leak-free, ..and I'll use a electric pump from here forward on the bench. Haha - my mileage varied on that test bottle I suppose...

Well, assembling a parts list for this '77. While I do that and wait, ..I'll get back on Rod's '77. His rack has some issues that I believe could be corrected easily despite a planned single-carb conversion.
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-26-2013, 01:34 PM
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CM85:

I understand. I watched the video and that motor sounds very healthy.

If you would like to make sure all your hard carb work is a "once and done" proposition, send me your mailing address and I'll send out the latest version of our Master Kit along with the video. No charge.

Randall Washington (Randakk)
Founder - Randakk's Cycle Shakk, LLC
Pinehurst, NC USA
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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-26-2013, 05:05 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the offer Randall.
I'm happy with my '77.
Let me do a inspection on Rod's carburetors and see what I find. His may need nothing more than a cleaning. Runs fantastic when the #4 float decides to operate as it is meant to operate. I'd hate to use one of your full kits just because it is there on the table, ...yet not really needed.
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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-27-2013, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight85 View Post
Thanks for the offer Randall.
I'm happy with my '77.
Let me do a inspection on Rod's carburetors and see what I find. His may need nothing more than a cleaning. Runs fantastic when the #4 float decides to operate as it is meant to operate. I'd hate to use one of your full kits just because it is there on the table, ...yet not really needed.

No problem. Let me know.

One thing I forgot to mention: unless you are resurrecting a bike that was carefully pickled (rare!) ....it’s very common to have fuel leaks when such bikes are put back into service without at least some internal carb attention.

Since these carbs have no external overflow circuits, ANY float valve issue will dump fuel directly into the plenum.

So, visible fuel in the plenum is a symptom that has overlapping root causes. Usually (but not always), “weeping” is associated with plenum gasket and/or u-seal issues. While actual “puddles” of fuel is more commonly connected to float valve problems.

It goes without saying that sometimes you have both problems to deal with. But in my experience - float valves (especially aftermarket ones) give way more trouble than the plenum gaskets and u-seals.

Randall Washington (Randakk)
Founder - Randakk's Cycle Shakk, LLC
Pinehurst, NC USA
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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-29-2013, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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...coming-up, VFR800 coils. Not for the '77 but for the daily rider. The '77 will get the 1100 coil set-up that is on the daily rider now. That leaves me with a near perfect set of original '77 coils for another bike if needed.

The new coil arrangement will have 1 coil per cylinder with each coil having its own amplifier. Will run the set-up as hot as I can make it while keeping the things reliable. Trial, error and testing to follow. The '77 will have a strong coil set-up as-is when the switch happens.

I was hoping that the VFR's used the dual-clip plug screws. No luck there but now I know that they don't.
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-30-2013, 03:40 PM
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CM85: If you can get that new ignition setup sorted you will probably like it.

There are good manufacturing/cost reasons for “wasted spark” ignition as delivered by Honda on the OEM setups on these machines. Stock ignitions perform well-enough when everything works as designed. But, there are some consequences to “wasted spark” ignitions when the performance level is increased.

I’m involved with 4 supercharged bikes: 2 street bikes that I built myself (GL1000 and CBX) and 2 Bonneville racers that I help sponsor (Triumph and GL1000). 3 of the the 4 now benefit from non-wasted spark ignitions. Only the “mild” CBX still employs wasted spark. At only 5psi max boost (for now) that’s an adequate arrangement on the CBX.

My supercharged GL1000 now has this very unusual, custom electronic distributor based ignition:



I upgraded to this ignition based on advice from noted supercharged expert Jeff Hartman. He generally advises against wasted spark ignition with supercharged engines. Here’s why: with boost, some “charge” is inevitably pushed though at valve overlap and gets into the cylinder during the exhaust cycle. Firing that charge via the “wasted” spark leads to unnecessary heat and other undesirable side-effects.

This new ignition avoids all that. An engineer at GM (retired) and engineers at Pertronix helped me with various details. The improvement actually surprised me. With the rev limiter disabled it pulls cleanly WAY past redline. There’s more power throughout, the engine seems smoother ("seat-of-the-pants") and it even starts easier.

Most notably, getting rid of the “wasted” spark improves idle characteristics noticeably.

Randall Washington (Randakk)
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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-02-2013, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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I lost track of this thread but found your post through a google image search.
I'm heading in the direction of your picture. I've ideas that are going to be very similar in construction.
Wasted Spark is not something I want to afford a cost of for the exact reasons you've stated.
I'm working on it...
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