rear brake engagement point - Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums

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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-13-2016, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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rear brake engagement point

My 99 wing that is triked has what I think is a problem with the rear brake lever having too much travel before the brakes start to engage. The rear pads are just about new (3,000 miles) and I just bled the brakes today. It has been this way since I installed the trike on the bike. That is why I don't know if there is a problem or not. As you step down on the rear pedal the first 1" or so there is nothing no reaction from the brakes. The more you push on the pedal is when the braking starts. With in the next 1 1/2" you go from no brake (at the beginning of travel) to full braking power but never to the point of locking up or bottoming the master cylinder out. Does this seem OK? My real question is, is there any adjustment on the rear master cylinder to change the point at which the brakes start to work? What I would like to do is get rid of some of that free travel in the beginning of the pedal movement so the brakes react quicker. Thanks
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-13-2016, 07:23 PM
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I don't have a trike, but it sounds like you are using drum brakes?

if so, are the pads adjusted up as close as possible w/o dragging the drums?

2: it would really help if you were using Stainless Steel lines, as regular rubber lines will swell a bit.

3: the OEM master cylinder is pretty small to be pushing on drum brakes, and the first 1 inch of travel w/o braking is pretty much the way all of my 1500s have felt anyway.

and, do you know if the rear Master cylinder is still linked to the front wheel?
if so, you might want to consider changing that... put both of the front discs on the handlebar brake lever....

and use the foot brake strictly for the rear wheel brakes.
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-13-2016, 07:41 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Mr. 1800: No they are disc brakes and are no longer linked to the front left brake so the rear master cylinder only works the 2 rear discs. It's been a long time since it was only 2 wheels and I can't remember what the pedal use to feel like.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-13-2016, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RKB53 View Post
My 99 wing that is triked has what I think is a problem with the rear brake lever having too much travel before the brakes start to engage. The rear pads are just about new (3,000 miles) and I just bled the brakes today. It has been this way since I installed the trike on the bike. That is why I don't know if there is a problem or not. As you step down on the rear pedal the first 1" or so there is nothing no reaction from the brakes. The more you push on the pedal is when the braking starts. With in the next 1 1/2" you go from no brake (at the beginning of travel) to full braking power but never to the point of locking up or bottoming the master cylinder out. Does this seem OK? My real question is, is there any adjustment on the rear master cylinder to change the point at which the brakes start to work? What I would like to do is get rid of some of that free travel in the beginning of the pedal movement so the brakes react quicker. Thanks
Keep in mind that when you apply the brake you are really only moving small amounts of fluid. With this in mind you can understand why everything must be in good shape as when you push the pedal the pads must be just ready to contact the rotors with no wasted motion. Things like worn pins and bushing on the caliper or slightly warped rotor can "knock" the pads and piston in to the caliper. Then you have to apply brake to push the pads and piston out before any braking begins. Another possible cause might be a worn or improperly adjusted wheel bearing will also knock the pads back. Yet another possible cause is old rubber brake lines can flex enough to allow wasted pedal travel.
A possible answer if to install a residual check valve in the line. This keeps just a couple of pounds of pressure applied to the brakes at all times. Not enough to make any real noticeable drag or wear, but the fluid is right there and ready when you apply the brake. If you have no tee in the line you might need 2 valves?
http://www.jegs.com/i/RPC/707/R4513/...IcEaAoH-8P8HAQ

Mike

Worked on the "big rigs" for 45 years now just riding my Wing whenever I can. Gets cold in Wisconsin.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-13-2016, 09:50 PM
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brake pads should normally ride approx 1 MM off the rotors, imbalance in things may kick them back out farther.
They live at `rest position` with fluid against the piston, ready to go instantly when pressure is applied,,not--fluid has to travel 1 inch before action.
Total movement of fluid forward and back -thru the line- when brakes used is MMs not inches
Above suggestions on lube the sliders and pivots is a good start, many bad things occur with stuck pins

Just thinking here: What about the adjustment of brake pedal on-to its pivot? if its currently set with pedal high that would require more pedal movement until brake action. Moved up a few marks might resolve the free-play issue

I am using the shifter lever adjustment as a reference for that: moving lever up or down a tick to give the right position-meaning clearance for your boot...
can the same thing be done on brake pedal?
Not willing to go lay under my bike right now to see~

Do ck the wheels with a slow manual spin- ck rim and rotors for runout displacing the pads, as noted by others

Do you remember-- it got HONDA pads? which are very thick, or EBC which are often used and half the thickness of hondas?
You may notice a large amount of caliper piston visible past its rubber boot- indicating the piston is displaced quite a bit = the thinner pads
Does that change the pedal = I dont know for sure so I am asking!

Im all for SS brake lines! Put them on my car = awesome!! You can watch the difference of old rubber line- being gently pumped up to bleed brakes and the line swells,,then the SS line which doesnt move at all.
Imagine how much pressure is lost under real life braking! With SS line you get full master cyl pressure all the way to the caliper,

Have you rebuilt the master to be safe and know thats not your pressure issue?
You have flushed the brake fluid with DOT4? iirc you already did that
Figured out which one to do first? tried both?
Tried burping the master cyl line connection? ie: the banjo fitting, air gets stuck there and no amount of bleeding calipers will fix it--
still have low pressure. Happened on clutch line for me~

Still liking the pedal adjustment theory here~

I have ebc pads all around on standard 2 wheel 1500, with a disconcerting amount of pedal travel for my likes.

If anyone knows this adjustment Im thinking of... and know it works to make the brake action feel better- please advise thanks
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-13-2016, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Aloha Tom View Post
brake pads should normally ride approx 1 MM off the rotors,
Wow, if my pads retracted that far I'd be really really scared.
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Advise given here is free and comes with no warranty "Caveat emptor"

Ken.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-14-2016, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Aloha Tom View Post
Just thinking here: What about the adjustment of brake pedal on-to its pivot? if its currently set with pedal high that would require more pedal movement until brake action. Moved up a few marks might resolve the free-play issue
Tom,
If you move the pedal up or down the travel will not change. Only the position of the pedal will change. Ken is correct. Even 1 MM off the rotor would be too much. When all is right they will rub (drag on) the rotor at all times.

Mike

Worked on the "big rigs" for 45 years now just riding my Wing whenever I can. Gets cold in Wisconsin.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-14-2016, 10:05 AM
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I had the same problem with mine, I used a Mustang disc brake set-up, I installed a 2# residual check valve as close to the master as possible. Willwood told me that I would have to have 1500-1800 psi during a panic stop at the calipers. I never could get over 800-900 psi. The rear would not lock up!!! I got close to being bald over this situation. The final fix was to take the calipers loose and tie them up with the bleeder at the very top, This puppy had a cavity that entrapped air that would not bleed in the normal postion. {still do not know why it would bleed the tiny amount of air out] I bled them in this postion and got my pressure up 1700psi. Just move the caliper up on the rotor with the bleeder at the top. Just my 2 cents worth......Charlie
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-14-2016, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Charlie in nc View Post
I had the same problem with mine, I used a Mustang disc brake set-up, I installed a 2# residual check valve as close to the master as possible. Willwood told me that I would have to have 1500-1800 psi during a panic stop at the calipers. I never could get over 800-900 psi. The rear would not lock up!!! I got close to being bald over this situation. The final fix was to take the calipers loose and tie them up with the bleeder at the very top, This puppy had a cavity that entrapped air that would not bleed in the normal postion. {still do not know why it would bleed the tiny amount of air out] I bled them in this postion and got my pressure up 1700psi. Just move the caliper up on the rotor with the bleeder at the top. Just my 2 cents worth......Charlie
Just a thought, when the calipers were mounted on the trike was the bleeder at the highest point. Air will go up otherwise and get trapped. I am surprised how a very small amount of air can have such a big effect. Great idea Charlie.

Mike

Worked on the "big rigs" for 45 years now just riding my Wing whenever I can. Gets cold in Wisconsin.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-14-2016, 10:41 AM
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Someone measure the actual clearance of pad to rotor at rest??
or just decided I must be wrong?

Gently dragging would glaze pads in a hurry! there is no contact- the normal irregularities of rotor in motion bump the pads outward when fluid pressure is released
I know there is a spec on 1500- I think for cking fork alignment, by measuring pad to rotor distance. Dont have that spec in front of me
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