1997 Goldwing GL1500 Jerks under 2,000 RPM - Page 5 - Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums

 19Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #41 of 150 (permalink) Old 06-10-2018, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
GoldwingA1500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sumter, SC
Year: 1997
Make: Honda
Model: Goldwing GL1500 Aspencade
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveO430 View Post
If it's too lean at 7mm you sure don't want to go to 8mm. You were asked the method you used to set the floats. Did you have the carbs upside down or just let the float rest on the pin.
I position the carbs so that the float is barely resting on the needle pin, and then I bend the float tabs until I achieved 7mm.
GoldwingA1500 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #42 of 150 (permalink) Old 06-10-2018, 10:58 PM
Senior Member
 
Erdeniz Umman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Türkiye
Year: 2000
Make: Honda
Model: GL1500SE Euro Spec
Posts: 1,336
Joe, I recommend you read the service manual pages through 4-45 to 4-58 to check if you missed anything while the tests you have done, to see the related parts and their connections, and the correct test procedures for the fuel system.
Erdeniz Umman is online now  
post #43 of 150 (permalink) Old 06-11-2018, 04:44 AM
It aint rocket science
 
DriverRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Glastonbury, Connecticut, USA
Model: The best
Posts: 3,790
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldwingA1500 View Post
Okay all!

I haven't yet solved the problem, but I feel that I'm getting very close to identifying the issue. Today was 97 degrees and hot, and that's when the bike jerks and spark-knocks even worse, and that was with 93 Octane fuel. It does it even worse with 87 Octane fuel.
What causes intake backfire? Feel free to add anything I've missed:
Joe
The 1500 should not ignition spark knock regardless of fuel used. Very high combustion temperatures will cause problems with a ping and would be due to a very lean running condition and/or overheating. When was the last time coolant level was checked in radiator (not the reserve tank). You need to revisit the carbs for their proper operation and installation and do some tests with carb clean spray added to each intake stream by following this. If you think it is the left side add it while riding when acting up.
https://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/...osis-test.html

J.D.

There is NO substitute for experience
I'll be around when I come around and not before
Internet myth buster

Starter ride
Rupp
Previous rides
Bultaco
Yamaha 360
Yamaha 650
WS Grand Chapter CT
If local and need help with a 1500, Valkyrie or ST repair please PM
DriverRider is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #44 of 150 (permalink) Old 06-11-2018, 07:27 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
GoldwingA1500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sumter, SC
Year: 1997
Make: Honda
Model: Goldwing GL1500 Aspencade
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdeniz Umman View Post
Joe, I recommend you read the service manual pages through 4-45 to 4-58 to check if you missed anything while the tests you have done, to see the related parts and their connections, and the correct test procedures for the fuel system.
Great advice! Going to do that shortly because I feel as though I may have missed something. What I know from last nights test is that the bike ran great to some extent after reconnecting the IASA valve. I am 100% percent certain the valve itself is good as I just got it off ebay last week, and I performed the appropriate leak tests and operational tests on the valve, and all checked good.

I woke up this morning with a fresh mind, and something is telling me that the intake hose on the valve (which I believe T's off into 2 directions: one for the left intake manifold, and one for the right intake manifold. It's my theory that after reconnecting the valve yesterday, hose manipulation might have caused a temporary sealing of a leaky hose likely on the left intake manifold. And unless I'm mistaken, the only way to replace this hose is to remove the carbs and the left intake manifold. I will post a picture so everyone can see what I am talking about. I'm going to start the bike up shortly to see if she still runs good. I'll follow up a little later.

Joe
GoldwingA1500 is offline  
post #45 of 150 (permalink) Old 06-11-2018, 07:34 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
GoldwingA1500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sumter, SC
Year: 1997
Make: Honda
Model: Goldwing GL1500 Aspencade
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by DriverRider View Post
The 1500 should not ignition spark knock regardless of fuel used. Very high combustion temperatures will cause problems with a ping and would be due to a very lean running condition and/or overheating. When was the last time coolant level was checked in radiator (not the reserve tank). You need to revisit the carbs for their proper operation and installation and do some tests with carb clean spray added to each intake stream by following this. If you think it is the left side add it while riding when acting up.
https://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/...osis-test.html
This is a great article. I performed a similar test last week when I had the bike on its stand. I saw fuel draining from one of the drain hoses, but it turned out to be spilled fuel from when I was filling up the tank with a gas can. So it was all good. But instead of using a cardboard, I used a simple rag to cover the intake. It ran rough and very rich as I plugged the inlet. Now here's the interesting part. I pulled the forward vacuum hose that controls the inlet duct flipper door, and I plugged it since it seems to draw a constant free-vacuum at the inlet box until the switch inside the filter box (that reacts to colder temperatures) closes, and thus shuts the inlet hot-air door. Well the bike runs better without wavering idle. Unplug the vacuum hose and she runs good for a few seconds, but then starts to waiver again. Probably nothing, but it will definitely run rich with a rag test of the intake. I have also performed this test with the filter off, and a large rag was laid over the left and right carbs, causing it to run very rich.

I recall I had intake filter box issues with my former 2001 Honda Shadow ACE 750. What solved the problem was dumping the filter box, and using velocity stacks with a metallic screen. I never had inlet box problems again, and I never needed an air filter since it used metal screens. I wish they made velocity stacks for the Goldwing as that solves a lot of problems with leaky intake boxes.

Joe
GoldwingA1500 is offline  
post #46 of 150 (permalink) Old 06-11-2018, 09:09 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Pemberton Twp. NJ.
Year: 1998
Make: Honda
Model: GL1500 SE
Posts: 336
Metal screens do not stop fine gritty particles of dust and sand! If you want an engine to last a while you need a good quality air filter and with all of the controls on these bikes the carburetors are calibrated for the restriction of the stock filter.
Rickf1985 is offline  
post #47 of 150 (permalink) Old 06-11-2018, 04:29 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
GoldwingA1500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sumter, SC
Year: 1997
Make: Honda
Model: Goldwing GL1500 Aspencade
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickf1985 View Post
Metal screens do not stop fine gritty particles of dust and sand! If you want an engine to last a while you need a good quality air filter and with all of the controls on these bikes the carburetors are calibrated for the restriction of the stock filter.
I agree. On my Shadow 750 ACE, I dumped the airbox and installed specially made Velocity stacks and that solved my problems completely as the airbox kept springing leaks. A guy online T.J. Brutal Customs is very good with the 600 and 750 Shadows, and that is where I purchased my V-Stacks from. It uses very fine yet rigid metal screens to stop any large debris from entering into the engine. I had to reject the carbs 1 size up for both the main and pilot jets, and it ran beautiful. I took a 750 with stock 35hp and increased it to about 60hp with the different mods I did, and I still averages about 52mph. Unfortunately, the Goldwing is a very controlled bike which meters air instead of fuel, although by controlling the amount of air, that in turn adjusts the amount of fuel. So in this case, I agree...leave it stock.

The only thing I might consider is deleting the PAIR and the IASA system all-together, leaving only vacuum to be used for the cruise control, the heat-duct door, and the CCU. At the same time, i understand the risks involved with such a drastic change to the GL1500 in deleting said systems. Without the IASA and the PAIR, the rear wheel is likely to lockup during deceleration under high vacuum when/if the clutch is release too fast. So at this point, I will keep the system as is, and continue troubleshooting the bike. But man, what I'd give for a fuel-injection conversion system. I'm a little surprised that nobody has developed an injection system conversion kit for the older carbureted GL series bikes.

Anyways, back to more troubleshooting.

Joe
GoldwingA1500 is offline  
post #48 of 150 (permalink) Old 06-11-2018, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
GoldwingA1500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sumter, SC
Year: 1997
Make: Honda
Model: Goldwing GL1500 Aspencade
Posts: 281
UPDATE:

So today I performed the PAIR system check, and also the IASA valve check. As far as I can tell, they both passed. What I did not realize until today (and correct me if I'm wrong), but the IASA system works WITH the PAIR system. Shot Air from the exhaust system is introduced into the intake manifold which travels from the exhaust, through the outlet fitting of the IASA valve, into the lower part of the PAIR Valve (in which PAIR valve is controlled via a solenoid), through tubes #16 (I think), and into the intake manifold. When the PAIR valve is closed during acceleration, this cuts pressure off to the IASA valve which in turn causes the IASA to close.

When the throttle is snapped to closed during deceleration, the sudden increase in vacuum pressure is relieved when the PAIR solenoid closes which in turn opens the PAIR valve (I suspect the PAIR valve relaxes on its own and thus opens, whereas vacuum pressure atop of the PAIR pulls the valve closed) and thus allows Shot Air from the exhaust to travel into the intake manifold.

Assuming my theory of operation is correct (again correct me if I'm wrong in this thus far), is it possible that the PAIR might be faulty and is not opening and closing at the right time, especially during low RPM intake vacuum, and thus causing the jerkiness until intake vacuum is strong enough to pull the PAIR closed and thus cut off shot air into the intake manifold? Wouldn't this cause a low RPM stumble condition, and also contribute to a lean condition?

Input guys. I need input (short circuit movie from the 1980's).

I've attached an illustration for the IASA valve in the open position, and PAIR Valve in the closed position. The red arrows indicate travel direction of air. Unless I'm mistaken, when the IASA valve is open to relieve intake vacuum pressure, the PAIR valve must be closed. Am I correct? Based on the illustration, if both the PAIR and the IASA valves were open, there would be two directions of travel at the junction from where the PAIR and the IASA meet. So as far as I can tell, one valve must be closed while the other is open to direct air flow. Again, correct me if I'm wrong in this.

On a side note, I've performed the air filter box obstruction test to see if the carbs deliver too much fuel. I did not use a carb board as a shared article suggested; I simply used my hand and slightly covered the intel duct and ran up the throttle; as expected, it ran far too rich. So at this point I still believe my carbs are good.

THEORY: It is my belief that the PAIR might be sticking open to allow air into the exhaust system and is not closing at low RPM. I'm going to test this system again today after dinner. It should close with a slight twist of the throttle (although not too slight or the valve will not close). OR the valve itself is closing but a potential leak might exist in the PAIR system or IASA system in the left intake manifold, and would thus explain the backfire I hear in the left intake system. I also hear an exhaust leak somewhere on the lower left side of the exhaust manifold, or possibly one of he PAIR tube hoses.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PAIR_System_Open.jpg (91.0 KB, 12 views)

Last edited by GoldwingA1500; 06-11-2018 at 05:26 PM.
GoldwingA1500 is offline  
post #49 of 150 (permalink) Old 06-11-2018, 05:35 PM
mod-erator
 
DaveO430's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Amity, Arkansas, USA
Model: 2010 GL1800
Posts: 24,016
Garage
NO, there is no exhaust injected into the intake. The pulse secondary air valve injects air into the exhaust and has nothing whatever to do with how the engine runs, it's only emission control. The IASA valve lets air into the intake on deceleration only, if it wasn't closing it wouldn't idle. They share the same hose from the air box but that's all. If it is running lean it has something to do with the carbs or the air jet controllers. And it will run too lean without the proper air filter, if you have a K&N or something like that throw it away.

With no God over the state, the state then becomes not the defender of liberty but the definer of liberty.


NRA endowment life member
Wild Rhino Arkansas chapter
2010 1800 pearl yellow

If I disagree with you it's simply because you're wrong.
DaveO430 is online now  
post #50 of 150 (permalink) Old 06-11-2018, 07:00 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
GoldwingA1500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Sumter, SC
Year: 1997
Make: Honda
Model: Goldwing GL1500 Aspencade
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveO430 View Post
NO, there is no exhaust injected into the intake. The pulse secondary air valve injects air into the exhaust and has nothing whatever to do with how the engine runs, it's only emission control. The IASA valve lets air into the intake on deceleration only, if it wasn't closing it wouldn't idle. They share the same hose from the air box but that's all. If it is running lean it has something to do with the carbs or the air jet controllers. And it will run too lean without the proper air filter, if you have a K&N or something like that throw it away.
Ah! I understand now. So the IASA Valve and the PAIR both use the same inlet tube from the forward right side of the filter box. But they do not operate together, and are independent systems. Oh about the filter, I am using a stock air filter.. I don't believe in K&N filters as to me you lose power (I suppose depending on vehicle application) as opposed to gaining power unless of course you do not add the red oil on the filter elements. I've always stuck with stock filters.

Here is what I noticed today.

1. Engine idle, I pulled a vacuum on the CCU (Carburetor Control Unit) and the engine began idling very rough and choppy. Is this normal? Possibly a bad CCU?
2. Performed vacuum test (own idea and not the book) on both the left and right intake manifolds. Both were somewhat balanced (as though I were syncing them), but I noticed that the left intake had a hell of a lot more oscillation of the needle. Mind you that I was using a standard automotive vacuum gauge. The right vacuum gauge had a tiny bit of bouncing at idle, but the left one was exaggerated, almost acting like a sticking intake valve or something.

Question: If the PAIR were faulty (test to be performed) is it possible that exhaust gases are bleeding into the left intake manifold on the left side only, possible because of a failed reed check valve? Actually now that I think of it, both intake manifolds have their own PAIR hoses. Take off one of the vacuum lines (any line on the left intake manifold) and place your finger over it, and you feel a pulse instead of a strong vacuum. For example, I pulled the test hose from the aft left side of the filter box that is connected to the pair and solenoid, and while at idle, it pulsed with tiny puffs of air. Run the engine up above 2,000 RPM and the hose still pulsed. Have I just found the problem?

The books says to idle the engine with this hose and apply a vacuum, and it should hold and no suction should be felt from the PAIR inlet tube (front right side of the filter box). The vacuum DID NOT hold, although the valve appears to have closed as little to no suction could be felt on the forward right tube of the filter box.

Based on the description, does this sound like a leaking PAIR valve?

THEORY: If my logic is correct, it's possible the PAIR is not closing all of the way and allowing pulsed air back into the system (if that's even possible) and would thus explain why vacuum pressure was not held at the test hose. If a reed check valve fails, wouldn't that allow exhaust gases to backflow towards the PAIR or even the entire left vacuum system? Or am I off base here? Otherwise, the pulsing might just be a sticking intake valve. Sounds like it's about time for the good ole seafoam treatment. Any takers?

Sorry to tap into the plethora of Goldwing knowledge here. I appreciate everyone's inputs. Hmmmmm? The more I think of it, this is starting to look more and more like sticking intake valves and that might explain why only the left intake manifold vibrates the gauges needle more than the right intake manifold.
GoldwingA1500 is offline  
Reply

  Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums > Forums > Goldwing Technical Forum

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Must of been 1,000,000,000 GL1100's dkl General Motorcycle Discussion Forum 4 09-02-2014 12:12 PM
1988 GL1500, 153,000 miles, $3,000 WingFlyer For Sale/Wanted Forum 4 10-10-2013 01:51 AM
Under 1800 RPM's miss-firing on GL1500 Racerx Goldwing Technical Forum 14 09-08-2012 10:20 PM
$10,000,000,000,000: Speeding toward the abyss tricky Miscellaneous Forum 2 01-16-2009 04:01 PM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome