'96i hard morning start - Page 3 - Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums

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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 08:44 PM
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The standard of the industry for a 12 volt relay is that it must activate down to 9.8 volts. I know if the battery on my bikes ever dropped even to 10 volts it would not start with the button held in. It has always been my assumption that a relay is not activated as the reason it won't go. I know Erd did a modification to overcome this issue, which is really not an issue. Does anyone know where the voltage drop is located or is it just an overall drop to all loads. I tried to find Erds's post but I never have much luck searching this forum. It's not important but would be interested to know the root, root cause just for fun. In other words, If I am right which relay falls below 9.8 and why?

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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by redwing52 View Post
The standard of the industry for a 12 volt relay is that it must activate down to 9.8 volts. I know if the battery on my bikes ever dropped even to 10 volts it would not start with the button held in. It has always been my assumption that a relay is not activated as the reason it won't go. I know Erd did a modification to overcome this issue, which is really not an issue. Does anyone know where the voltage drop is located or is it just an overall drop to all loads. I tried to find Erds's post but I never have much luck searching this forum. It's not important but would be interested to know the root, root cause just for fun. In other words, If I am right which relay falls below 9.8 and why?
Here
https://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums...on-solved.html
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 10:46 PM
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Thanks Tex. I knew I saw it somewhere.

Mike

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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 05:57 AM
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It's not important but would be interested to know the root, root cause just for fun. In other words, If I am right which relay falls below 9.8 and why?
There is no relay involved, it's just that the electronics in the ECU will not operate below X volts, not battery voltage but voltage at the ECU at the moment.

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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 09:08 AM
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There is no relay involved, it's just that the electronics in the ECU will not operate below X volts, not battery voltage but voltage at the ECU at the moment.
I think you might have missed my point. Here is what I am guessing.

Scenario #1. Super good battery. While cranking voltage at the battery drops to 12 volts. Voltage the the relay is 10 volts. Relay closes and the bike starts even while cranking because the relay only needs 9.8 to close.

Scenario #2. Marginal battery. While cranking voltage at the battery drops to 11 volts. Voltage the the relay is 9 volts. Relay doesn't close and the bike won't start while cranking because the relay needs 9.8 to close
and only 9 volts is available. When you release the button battery and relay voltage jump while the inertia of the engine continues to spin the engine. Relay closes, ignition comes to life and the engine is still spinning. It starts up .
What Erd did was bring battery voltage right to the output of the relay via his dedicated relay.
It just occurred to me ( after all my typing) that what Dave is saying is he believes the relay is closed and because of the voltage drop of the poor battery and the starter (cranking) draw the voltage at the ECM is too low to turn on the ECM. That is possible and I am not taking my bike apart to know for sure. I'm just not that interested. .

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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 10:07 AM
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I think you might have missed my point. Here is what I am guessing.

Scenario #1. Super good battery. While cranking voltage at the battery drops to 12 volts. Voltage the the relay is 10 volts. Relay closes and the bike starts even while cranking because the relay only needs 9.8 to close.

Scenario #2. Marginal battery. While cranking voltage at the battery drops to 11 volts. Voltage the the relay is 9 volts. Relay doesn't close and the bike won't start while cranking because the relay needs 9.8 to close
and only 9 volts is available. When you release the button battery and relay voltage jump while the inertia of the engine continues to spin the engine. Relay closes, ignition comes to life and the engine is still spinning. It starts up .
What Erd did was bring battery voltage right to the output of the relay via his dedicated relay.
It just occurred to me ( after all my typing) that what Dave is saying is he believes the relay is closed and because of the voltage drop of the poor battery and the starter (cranking) draw the voltage at the ECM is too low to turn on the ECM. That is possible and I am not taking my bike apart to know for sure. I'm just not that interested. .
But what relay are you referring to? The only relay in the system unless you add one is the ignition relay and if it didn't close the starter would not work.
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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 11:16 AM
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ERD and others have added a new relay that applies full battery voltage direct to the ECM.


this is helpful for marginal batteries, but is merely hiding the real problem.

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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 11:20 AM
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ERD and others have added a new relay that applies full battery voltage direct to the ECM.


this is helpful for marginal batteries, but is merely hiding the real problem.
Absolutely correct John.....!

I received a lot of "flack" from someone when I tried to explain how to identify the source of the problem (when the bike does not start until you released the starter button). Someone else resolved the problem (without adding an additional relay) even when they had a marginal battery.

But by now, I am used to getting "criticism" from a couple folks on this forum. I consider it their problem...not mine....!
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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 11:46 AM
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ERD and others have added a new relay that applies full battery voltage direct to the ECM.


this is helpful for marginal batteries, but is merely hiding the real problem.
Yes,that seems to be what most of this is about. I agree with DBohrer that cleaning connectors would probably solve the problem.

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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 02:03 PM
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But what relay are you referring to? The only relay in the system unless you add one is the ignition relay and if it didn't close the starter would not work.
It was such a common issue at work to have cube relays that failed or did not close because of low voltage my brain just went there from habit. Now that I see the bigger picture I agree completely. Didn't think about the start system getting power from the same relay. Am I right assuming that same wire that brings power to the ECU would power the fuel pump, start system and ignition system. At least on the later models that did not have a dedicated fuel pump relay. That is a fair amount of draw on that relay and in that circuit then. So I guess when a person is checking connections (voltage drop) a hidden connection to keep in mind might be across the point set in the relay. That could be easy to forget or miss. Out of sight, out of mind.

Mike

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