Shifting without the clutch - Page 3 - Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums

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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-2018, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by fenry View Post
What's a clutch?
That's what your passenger does to your privates as she's sliding off the back.

I take it that the clutch(s) are automagic for starting and stopping?
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-20-2019, 09:45 PM
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no clutch

Depending on your experience, not using the clutch is much harder on the shift forks, drive shaft and rear end, than the gears. Car and truck transmissions have a neutral in between each gear. In a car the syncro either speeds up or slows down the rotating mass(including the clutch disc and countershaft) to allow the shift collar to align with the dogs on the gear. In a heavy truck, there are no syncros, thus the need for "double clutching" where during the shift, the clutch is released in the neutral position, disengaged again to place in next gear. The other choice is to "float" the shift. In that case, as you come to the shift point, throttle pressure is reduced to remove torque from shift collar, shift level is placed into neutral, rpms are allowed to drop to the proper level, and shifter is moved to next gear. Down shifting requires the throttle to be "blipped" in neutral to speed match the gear, providing you are going slow enough that the engine governor allows enough rpms for the lower gear you are looking to select.
As remarked earlier, "1-2 shift is more difficult" this is because there is a neutral there.
High performance transmissions such as Tremec trans used in Nascar and road racing, the shift collars and dogs are ground with a special lead angle to suck the collar and dogs together an lock them under power. These transmissions wear the angles down fairly quick, requiring repair after a few races.
Knowing whats going on inside, I think I will use the clutch, but that was a nice video.

MGK
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-21-2019, 06:00 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MaynardGKrebbs View Post
Depending on your experience, not using the clutch is much harder on the shift forks, drive shaft and rear end, than the gears. Car and truck transmissions have a neutral in between each gear. In a car the syncro either speeds up or slows down the rotating mass(including the clutch disc and countershaft) to allow the shift collar to align with the dogs on the gear. In a heavy truck, there are no syncros, thus the need for "double clutching" where during the shift, the clutch is released in the neutral position, disengaged again to place in next gear. The other choice is to "float" the shift. In that case, as you come to the shift point, throttle pressure is reduced to remove torque from shift collar, shift level is placed into neutral, rpms are allowed to drop to the proper level, and shifter is moved to next gear. Down shifting requires the throttle to be "blipped" in neutral to speed match the gear, providing you are going slow enough that the engine governor allows enough rpms for the lower gear you are looking to select.
As remarked earlier, "1-2 shift is more difficult" this is because there is a neutral there.
High performance transmissions such as Tremec trans used in Nascar and road racing, the shift collars and dogs are ground with a special lead angle to suck the collar and dogs together an lock them under power. These transmissions wear the angles down fairly quick, requiring repair after a few races.
Knowing whats going on inside, I think I will use the clutch, but that was a nice video.
Well you seem to know what you are talking about but at the same time you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-21-2019, 07:36 AM
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Clutches are pretty much used for stopping n starting only or when I've got extra weight on the bike.

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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-21-2019, 07:43 AM
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The OTR truckers that I know, and are close friends, do NOT double clutch their manual trannys, nor do any of the truckers that I happen to be right beside when they shift...


there is just a suttle "slick snick" and they match RPM and gear speed.


and when I drove a very old International six cylinder inline piece of crap, except for the 1-2 shift, I did not have to double clutch that old beast either....


but, if I missed a gear, it was come to a full stop, and start all over.
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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-21-2019, 03:55 PM
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gear floating

[QUOTE=AZgl1800;5830439].


there is just a suttle "slick snick" and they match RPM and gear speed



This is what I reffered to as "float" the shift. Strictly "by EAR" . Not that you would listen for grinding... but what is anticipating the correct RPM drop(or increase) for each gear change, before placing in next gear.
Lower gears are tougher because of driveline torque. So if you are in soft dirt or turning from a stop, the higher load causes the truck to decelerate during the shift, reducing the time(window) that you have to make the shift.
The design of a heavy truck transmission is what allows it to shift clutchlessly. With Electronic Fuel Injection tied to Fuller shift controls modern trucks have started using an "automatic" controlled shifting of a basically manual transmission. An interruption of power at the appropriate time, and air cylinder slams the shift collar into the desired gear.

They also use a "clutch brake", used because there are no syncros. To initially shift into gear from an idle in neutral, the rotating mass of the clutch disc, input shaft, and countershafts(s) must be stopped or you will have a clash or grind, even after disengaging the clutch. The clutch brake operates in the last inch of pedal travel before the pedal hits the floor. Some have been air actuated.


When power is applied through gears, stresses try to push to center lines of their shafts apart. In High (1:1) gear this effect is non existing

because the input and output shafts are directly locked by the shift collar. In 3rd of a 4 speed trans. the spreading of the centerline creates kind of bending effect of the centerline of the mainshaft and input shaft. Truck transmissions have developed a twin countershaft design that eliminates this flaw, by placing another countershaft directly opposite the other. The more power creates this spreading the more the extra countershaft just pushed it back to center. This works so well, that it eliminated the need for bearing surface between the mainshaft and any gears that rotate on it, the are centered only by load and the opposing gear faces. The only contact to the mainshaft is by the engaged shift collar.
All this has little to do with how a motorcycle transmission is designed, my point is, having repaired each type, I don't believe I would drive a motorcycle without using the clutch to shift. Just my opinion, you do as you like.

MGK
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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 01:29 PM
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Meh, Every bike I've ever thrown a leg over got shifted without disengaging the clutch except to start or stop. Never had any issues. I've always heard it called speed shifting. If yer racing, it will shave time off yer run.
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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 10:45 AM
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Dad's old Ford Louisville 9000 semi shifted easier without the clutch than with. Kinda like the Goldwing
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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-04-2019, 09:13 AM
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The only time I shift without the clutch is when I'm texting with my phone in my left hand...





Kidding, after using the clutch for 50 years I couldn't make myself shift without using the clutch. I have replaced worn gears and shifting arms though, no fun at all.
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Last edited by hydrofoiler; 05-04-2019 at 04:49 PM.
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-04-2019, 01:21 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hydrofoiler View Post
I have replaced worn gears and shifting arms though, no fun at all.
If you know how to do it there is no more wear on the trans parts than when using the clutch. In my video I shifted a lot just for demonstration purposes and watching it I can't tell when I shifted a lot of the time. I accidentally cut off the end of the video before I came to a stop, in neutral.

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