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Wingmaster Shamus 04-16-2012 01:26 PM

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96aspencade wrote:

Heuym it's u boy's down thar that only use 1/2 of the letters we are given, U only waste it if U don't use it :cool:
O :smiler:

Think I'll stay away from that one... ;-))

82gl1100iWingman 04-16-2012 01:43 PM

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There is a myriad of reasons why they will not ever sanction the use of a ct on a mc. And yes, one of them is due to liability issues. But you must know who it is that sets the standards for ALL the rims and tires whether they be a car, motorcycle or even an airplane. It is neither the vehicle manufacturer (automobile, motorcycle or airplane) nor the tire manufacture. It is the Tire and Rim Association. They are the people who do all the research and development as to which and why certain aspects of the rim and tire work best for it's own application.

Your quote "I'm not at all against using a CT on a motorcycle personally, but unless studies are done and statistics kept, no one has all the facts... " Umm yes, those who have do the math and spent billions of dollars on research and development for both the ct and the mt do have the answers. It is just that some people will dismiss any and all fact presented. As far as statistics, I can only refer you to the "Hurt Report". 19.1% of the 3622 motorcycle crashes studied, had a modified rear wheel. As to what a modifiedrear wheel all consisted of, he did not delineate.

But to understand as to why mc tires will not last as long as a ct, will take great lengths of understanding physics, and chemistry. But to try understand some of the chemistry that goes on with a tire, one of the main ingredients in all types of tires is silica. Silica is what makes a tire "grip" the road. Or in other words makes the tire "softer".The higher the silica level the "grippier" or the tire. The more a tires grips the road surface, the faster it will wear out. The lower the amount of silica, the less the tires wear out and the less grip they have. A motorcycle can be designed to last 40,000-60,000 miles. The problem is the level of silica required to acheive thatwould be to low to have maximum adhesion that a motorcycle requires in corners.

To understand some of the physics, a ct on mc DOES NOT increase traction. The only way to increase traction is to increase weight. Case in point, if you get stuck in the mud, the best way to get it unstuck is bounce on the bumper closest to the drive axle to gain traction. By increasing the weight, you can gaintraction. As you bounce, whenthecoil springs rebound from being compressed and release all the energy causing the the car to go up, as the car goes upthe tire spins faster in the mud because it has lost traction due to not as much weight on the drive axle.Now to try to further understand let's try an experiment with a brick. Stand the brick up on its end. Measure how much effort it takes to move the brick. Write it down. Down lay the brick flat and measure again how much effort it takes to move they brick. It will require they same amount of effort to move the brick either way the brick is orientated. It won't even matter it you balance the brick on it's sharp edge. It will still require the same amount of effort. So the amount "surface material" doe not affect traction. These are the basic laws of friction.

One of my favorite sayings "You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts." If your opinion is that a ct on a mc is that it fits and is safe, well that's your opinion and I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I have said many times, it's your ride and ride it like you want. But let's not confuse opinion with fact.

WingMan71 04-17-2012 02:02 PM

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Wingmaster Shamus wrote:

I would like to know what exactly Honda has to say about using automobile tires on their bikes?


I'll answer your original question. (I'm not interested in the whole CTdebate, to each their own.)

The only reference I have found in any official Honda publication regarding car tires is in the Owner's Manual under Tires:

Here's the section from my '06 GL1800 Owner's Manual:



Important Safety Reminders:

* Do not install a tube inside a tubeless tire on this motorcycle. Excessive heat build-up can cause the tube to burst.

* Use only tubeless tires on this motorcycle. The rims are designed for tubeless tires, and during hard acceleration or braking, a tube-type tire could slip on the rim and cause the tire to rapidly deflate.

* Do not install a bias-ply tire on this motorcycle. Mixing bias-ply and radial tires can adversely affect handling and stability.

* Do not install CAR TIRES on this motorcycle. During installation the tire may separate from the rim with enough force to cause serious injury or death.

* When replacing tires, use only the recommended tires as shown above and on the tire information label. Use of other tires on the model equipped with ABS may impair proper ABS function. The ABS computer works by comparing wheel speed. Non-recommended tires can affect wheel speed and may confuse the ABS computer.


I have personally not seen car tires mentioned in any other official Honda publication.

(Note: I highlighted the car tire info above so you could find it easier. It is not highlighted in the manual.)

The same safety note regarding car tires is in my friend's '97GL1500 Owner's Manual as well.

My '87 GL1200 Owner's Manual does not contain a note about car tires in that same tire safety notice section. Perhaps that pre-dates run flat car tires, I'm not sure.

So, there are the official Honda references.

Wingmaster Shamus 04-17-2012 03:16 PM

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I appreciate all the information and personal experience offered here and in other posts! I have to admit that personally I'm attracted to the idea of using a C/T for a variety of reasons. I especially understand that just because the industry doesn't endorse the use of C/T's, doesn't by itself imply that they are not a safe alternative. For the time being however, I will be sticking with tradition. In no way does that change my opinion that mother Honda should take some initiative on this important issue!

96aspencade 04-17-2012 03:26 PM

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Interesting , it seems Honda's only concern is the tire separating "during installation on the rim" ------- so if you get past this stage without personal injury :?:?

Wingmaster Shamus 04-17-2012 04:07 PM

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96aspencade wrote:

Interesting , it seems Honda's only concern is the tire separating "during installation on the rim" ------- so if you get past this stage without personal injury :?:?
LOL!! I noticed that also... I really find it disturbing that Honda has not at least added andetailedwarning concerning this matter. Obviously a good number of big cruisers and touring bike owners have made the switch, if it's not safe I would think that they should be held accountable? Maybe they will come out with some sort of statement after hearing about my concerns... ;-))

96aspencade 04-18-2012 06:01 AM

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82gl1100wingman - "Accepting and agreeing" that all the "Facts" in your post are accurate and true. There still seems to be the "Fact" missing that these facts have contributed to any motorcycle crashes or problems. :?

With the millions of miles traveled by DS-ers on C/T's - is there any indication / documentation that these "Facts" actually and really were or have been a factor in any cases. :? Just asking..?

82gl1100iWingman 04-18-2012 08:19 AM

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96ASPENCADE, I once thought of going darkside. I contemplated and did the research yall have done by reading darksider forums and figuring what was the best tire and which wasn't. I was so determined to go darkside that I even contemplated having my 1200 rim machined to be able to accepted a car tire. I found several places here in Fort Worth that would do it for $40 a rim. This is when I decided to delve deeper and actually do the engineering research to find out how this is going to affect my bike. Like Shamus wanted, I also wanted to hear from the horses mouth. Or in other words hear the other side of the story instead of looking for information that doen't exist. The information that you and every other darksider wants does not exist. I have spent spent months looking for it and nobody, not the NHTSB, NHTSA, or any state or local government agency has down a study as to delinate between a car tire or a motorcycle tire mounted on a motorcycle. When and if the law enforcement doesan accident investigation, it is only to find who is at fault, not what caused it. Only insurance companies would request that deep of investigation. That's only going to happen if someone sues. To make a comparsion is like you are asking to find out why a 2x4 spanning 25 feet on a flat roof in Canada won't make a good rafter. The engineers have already done the math, experiments, and the science that says it doesn't work. This is where I find quite confusing, you will trust other engineers in their discipline, but not tire engineers.

As far as the facts I have presented in this thread, well. they are easy enough to research if you disbelieve me. The "Hurt Report" is posted online for you to read. The Laws of Friction, just google it and read the first two laws. The chemistry of the tire is also easy one to research. If you want the design criteria, that is very hard to come by, I will gladly pass it on to you. Just PM me your email address. I cannot figure out how to attach a word document in aPM. Since the writing of the research, I have gotten a car tire test back from Hancook tires which I will add to the research paper eventually. It is truly enlighting as to what stress are put on a cartire when mounted on a car while cornering. The reason why is because a motorcycle creates much more lateralforces on the tread area than a car when cornering.

RGbeard did post a link on different thread showing a motorcycle going through the dragon with a car tire on it. The rear tire lost traction in the middle of the corner and started to fishtail to the left. When the tire caught traction again, the bike was sideways in his lane and therefore the rider high sided the bike. But when it was posted, everyone just dismissed as poor rider ability, nobody wanted to blame the tire for losing traction.

slicklizard 04-18-2012 09:06 AM

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what size of ct on rear of goldwing cycle is being used
on 1997 model

96aspencade 04-19-2012 07:30 AM

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82gl1100iwingman,I started my post by saying that I accept and agree with your facts posted. :waving:

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