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Discussion Starter #21
Good video, beautiful and super clean bike.

When you check the vacuum hoses make sure to squeeze, bend and manipulate them as some splits and cracks may not be visible otherwise.
Also pay attention to hoses that have a preformed bend as they can collapse along the inside radius of the bend.
Thanks for the compliments. It's taken me months to get it that clean. The gentlemen I purchased it from kept it outside all year long, and only road it maybe 3 or 4 times a year. Those poor carbs were a complete mess when I took them apart as they were gunked in ethanol corrosion (green and brown). Plus he lived on a farm and the bike was filthy dirty, and I mean filthy! I use a spray/wax cleaner from the autoparts store...can't think of the name. I've tried the stuff sold at Honda, but it sucks...leaves a white streak and really doesn't shine all that well. Once I'm done with the mechanical side, then it's time to pull all of the covers off, and I'm going to paint it (I used to do paint and body work); same color of course.

I've replaced nearly every vacuum hose on the bike except the PAIR system hoses, and the three hoses that go to the IASA Valve. I also changed the troubled hoses under the carbs as one of them had a hole at the bend.

I think sometime tomorrow I'm going to yank the plugs off and perform a compression test to make sure none of the valves are sticking. I've seen this happen before although on automotive engines. My 5.7 Vortec misfired a lot and I thought it was worn rings. I yanked the engine out and rebuilt the entire bottom half first. When I got to the heads, that's where I was stunned. Half of the exhaust valves were caked with ethanol corrosion; it's a sticky gew that stretches like cheese when it's wet, and smells like burnt corn when you use a drill and wire brush; the crap is very hard to get off. Normal carbon buildup is easily removed with parts cleaner. But ethanol corrosion has kind of like a tacky candy-apple texture. And because the gentlemen I purchased the bike from used ethanol in the bike, and left it sitting up for more than a year without fuel treatment, I wouldn't be surprised if the valves are not closing.

The troubleshooting continues.
 

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You are extremely thorough and determined, and will no doubt eventually discover the cause. Keep up the good work.
Looking forward to you sharing your "a ha" moment with us.
 

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It aint rocket science
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An ignition or internal engine problem not likely IMO. Verify air jet controller hoses are connected correctly (bottom port of both carbs connected to same common hose and likewise with top port hoses and that they go to the correct AJC, one is for the idle circuit the other main circuit.

Observe carb slide action by looking into carbs while it is acting up, they should always be moving in tandem with a tell-tale spray of fuel where the needle enters the carb body.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
You are extremely thorough and determined, and will no doubt eventually discover the cause. Keep up the good work.
Looking forward to you sharing your "a ha" moment with us.
No doubt my friend. I will definitely share the "ah ha!" moment with everyone. It's too bad this bike doesn't have a computer interface where I can read all the sensors from a computer screen, as opposed to relying on old-fashioned troubleshooting. If only I could see everything happening on a PC monitor; fuel mixture, exhaust emissions, vacuum system, etc. But hey! That's what being a real mechanic is all about; knowing the entire system, what each component is supposed to be doing and when, and the basic fuel delivery and compression/timing stuff.

More to come!

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #27
It seems like the slides are sticking, and not returning to the correct position due to some reason.
I'm with you on this one. Although to me it feels as though the slides are not pulling back far enough until sufficient vacuum pressure in the airbox is achieved, and then more fuel is delivered and thus yielding more power. I swear it's as though the engine is not getting enough fuel as the low RPM spectrum, and the jerking is pre-ignition from a lean condition; this is where I'm at right now for my prognosis.

I tested the AJ2 and AJ3 solenoids last year. But I noticed at that time that with AJ2 open upon throttle advancement, no vacuum is felt at all; the same with AJ3. Should their be a slight vacuum from the AJ2 and AJ3 solenoids when they are opened? I felt nothing from them so I'm not even sure why the solenoids are even there. I even checked for vacuum from the hoses BEFORE they are connected to either solenoids, and again there was nothing. So it left me wondering why the AJ2 and AJ3 circuits have a secondary filter when no vacuum is being drawn. Are the AJ2 and AJ3 circuits part of the carb-slide air behind the boots of the slide?

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #28
An ignition or internal engine problem not likely IMO. Verify air jet controller hoses are connected correctly (bottom port of both carbs connected to same common hose and likewise with top port hoses and that they go to the correct AJC, one is for the idle circuit the other main circuit.

Observe carb slide action by looking into carbs while it is acting up, they should always be moving in tandem with a tell-tale spray of fuel where the needle enters the carb body.
I've had the cover off and I know CV carbs must have a vacuum for the slides to pull back far enough. However, I've run the engine up while looking at the carb slides, and they pull back to some degree, but not enough to see fuel being drawn except from what I can see from the accelerator pump tubes; lots of fuel emits from both the left and right accelerator pump sprayers. But I cannot see any fuel being sprayed from the carb throat as air is being drawn. Could this be the problem? I saw a video on YouTube where a guy rebuilt his carbs, and his carbs sprayed fuel big time, but I cannot see anything on mine EXCEPT from the accelerator pump tubes.

I also noted that no vacuum could be felt before or ever AJ2 and AJ3 circuits. So why does it even have a secondary filter if there is no vacuum pressure felt, even at high idle?

Also, while at idle, I noticed the PAIR induction tube on the front ride side of the filter box is drawing air even when at idle. Isn't the PAIR supposed to be closed at idle? Mine is open unless I throttle heavy enough for the PAIR to close, and the gurgling noise you hear vanishes. Once the engine returns to idle, the PAIR opens again and vacuum can be felt from the PAIR induction tube where also a gurgling sound is heard. Again, is this normal because the book doesn't tell you the parameters for PAIR operation.

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Check this thread. http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/501649-surging-problem-solved.html
And don't waste your money on high octane fuel, goldwings are designed to run on regular.
I saw this old thread last year, and that was my first guess that the carb-controller might be receiving false information from the coolant sensor. I have not yet changed the item because the problem that I am having is observed in both cold and hot running conditions.

The only indication that I am getting is the bike seems to run better (although still jerky below 2,000 RPM) in cold weather with 87 Octane fuel being used. But in hot days like this, 87 Octane spark knocks and thus causes the jerking. 93 reduces this problem but does not eliminate it. This is why I'm still under the impression that I have a severe lean condition at low RPM, and thus causing the jerky spark-knock. Something is telling me that it may be time to pull the carbs out again...I might have done something wrong.

Joe
 

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I also noted that no vacuum could be felt before or ever AJ2 and AJ3 circuits. So why does it even have a secondary filter if there is no vacuum pressure felt, even at high idle?
You will not feel a vacuum there they are simply atmospheric air bleed ports which open into the carb circuits to lean a mixture out. The AJC's pull double duty and also serve as the altitude compensation system.:cool:

Also, while at idle, I noticed the PAIR induction tube on the front ride side of the filter box is drawing air even when at idle. Isn't the PAIR supposed to be closed at idle? Mine is open unless I throttle heavy enough for the PAIR to close, and the gurgling noise you hear vanishes. Once the engine returns to idle, the PAIR opens again and vacuum can be felt from the PAIR induction tube where also a gurgling sound is heard. Again, is this normal because the book doesn't tell you the parameters for PAIR operation.
That is how a Pulse Air system works and behaves by drawing air into the exhaust stream except on high manifold vacuum closed throttle decel, no problem there.

What procedure did you use to check and set the float levels?
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Joe, do you have the service manual?
I have a PDF version of the service manual; no paperback book. Although there is a small manual that came with the bike, but that is not the repair/service manual. I'd like to get hold of a hard or soft back version, but I'm fine with the electronic version. And that is what I've been using.

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #35
You will not feel a vacuum there they are simply atmospheric air bleed ports which open into the carb circuits to lean a mixture out. The AJC's pull double duty and also serve as the altitude compensation system.:cool:



That is how a Pulse Air system works and behaves by drawing air into the exhaust stream except on high manifold vacuum closed throttle decel, no problem there.

What procedure did you use to check and set the float levels?
That was a slight problem in setting the float height. In the manual, one section stated 7mm, while another said 8mm. I set them at 7mm which might be a bit short. Fortunately I do not see any fuel draining from the overflow line, but I do have a mind to remove the carbs again and closely inspect the CV boots for any possible hole or tear that I may have missed last year. I will also reset the float height to 8mm. Which is it? 7mm or 8mm?

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Okay all!

I haven't yet solved the problem, but I feel that I'm getting very close to identifying the issue. Today was 97 degrees and hot, and that's when the bike jerks and spark-knocks even worse, and that was with 93 Octane fuel. It does it even worse with 87 Octane fuel.

Anyways, the bike cruised beautifully at highways speeds at about 70mph to 85mph. Once I slowed to 45mph in OD, I decided to overload the engine and duplicate the issue. I would snap the throttle to 3/4 to full, and the left side of the engine popped and backfired I believe in the intake manifold. I was able to duplicate this over and over. It would jerk, pop, or spit on the left side of the engine. So let's review here.

What causes intake backfire? Feel free to add anything I've missed:

1. Vacuum leak
2. Sticking valves also leading to vacuum leak but is compensated at higher RPM's since the gases cannot escape fast enough
3. Improper ignition timing (Computer maybe?)
4. Lean fuel condition (accelerator pump or improper fuel metering)

My first guess is to check for leaky valves, so as soon as the bike cools down, I'm going to perform a compression test on the entire left side. I'm leaving out the right side since no popping originated from that area. Now since the left intake manifold is the only manifold with vacuum ports and lines, tell me if you think this might work. If I simply removed the forward and aft vacuum lines and plugged both ports, assuming that a leak is in the vacuum hose/tube system (in theory), wouldn't that eliminate the popping assuming that was the problem? Unless I am in error, the left intake manifold supplies vacuum to the following components: Let me know if I missed anything:

1. Cruise Control
2. PAIR Control
3. IASA Valve
4. Intake Heat Snorkel

Did I miss anything requiring vacuum which is supplied via the left intake manifold.

By God I'm going to solve this problem if it kills me. LOL I should go back to school and take a class strictly on the GL series engines; especially the older carburetor engines.

"Input! I need Input" Anyone remember what moves that was from? LOL

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Just wondering if you already verified engine timing at the crank and timing belt pulley's?
Not yet but that is on the list. I don't recall timing belt replacement intervals and my bikes has 39,000 miles on it. Even so, there's no telling if any mods or upgrades were done to the bike unless I remove the lower front cover and check the timing. It's possible the guy before me might have installed a 4 degree timing wheel, and that might explain the spark knocking during the summer when using 87 Octane. More to come on this.

Joe
 

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That was a slight problem in setting the float height. In the manual, one section stated 7mm, while another said 8mm. I set them at 7mm which might be a bit short. Fortunately I do not see any fuel draining from the overflow line, but I do have a mind to remove the carbs again and closely inspect the CV boots for any possible hole or tear that I may have missed last year. I will also reset the float height to 8mm. Which is it? 7mm or 8mm?

Joe

If it's too lean at 7mm you sure don't want to go to 8mm. You were asked the method you used to set the floats. Did you have the carbs upside down or just let the float rest on the pin.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
UPDATE:

So this evening I performed a compression test (dry) to see if any valves might be suspect. All four cylinders on the left side averages about 190 +/-. I'm sure it would have been higher had I squirted a little bit of oil, but overall I'm pleased with the results. So this pretty much eliminates sticking valves.

I also disconnected both vacuum hoses on the left side and plugged both ports. Of course, the bike stalled (as I suspected) since the IASA Valve opened during throttle deceleration just from a stand still. So I had to remove the cooling fan and isolate the valve by plugging the three lines. Then the bike was able to run but as a very rich state. The rear vacuum port controls the PAIR Valves, and I believe the cruise control, so it was not an issue unplugging. So with the IASA valve isolated, and the two ports plugged, there was no change. The bike still jerked under 2,000 RPM. So I believe we can safely assume that there is no vacuum leak.

HOWEVER, this is what I did notice. When I reconnected the IASA Valve, and the aft vacuum port, and took the bike around the block, the damn thing ran beautiful. Absolutely little to no JERKING! Guys I'm stumped! Is it possible that the IASA Valve is not function correctly? I just replaced that damn thing although it was a used one. I checked it according to the book and it worked fine. It opens and closes as it is supposed to, and there are not vacuum leaks on the valve. Remember the bike stalled at first attempt because the valve opened when I had the vacuum line disconnected. So I had to isolate it. Yet with the valve taken out of the picture, the bike still jerked. When I reconnected the valve, the damn thing ran great with no jerking under 2,000 RPM.

Could someone with more thorough knowledge please explain to me how the IASA valve is controlled (opened/closed)? I know that a small vacuum hose is connected to the right side of the valve, and a larger free-flowing hose connected to the bottom port. And a larger hose is connected to the left side of the vacuum which has a strong vacuum.

I know when testing the valve, vacuum pressure is applied to the lower large port and there should be no vacuum leak; this passed. Vacuum is applied to the smaller port, while about 5psi is pushed on the lower larger port. When the small vacuum hose suction is reduced, this causes the valve to open momentarily and the larger vacuum hose on the left side (forward side towards the radiator) pulls air from the larger hose on the lower right side. This all happens during deceleration under high intake vacuum. As soon as you are at a stop and returned to idle, the valve closes but I do not know how or why.

Now I only ran the bike twice around the block after the two tests, and as I've stated, it ran fairly well with only minor jerky, very little at that and below 2,000 RPM. No doubt tomorrow (or even now) when I take the bike out, it will jerk again.

What's freaking weird is when I isolated the IASA valve (taking it out of the picture), the bike still jerked. So I'm confused fella's. LOL Now I cannot be sure that the bike ran perfect since I did not exceed 30mph in the neighborhood, so I'm going to call it a flue test. Thus at this point, there was no change with eliminating possible vacuum leaks, and the valves appeared to be good based on the compression test results. So I think next is removing the carburetors again and inspecting the IASA hoses that go to the left and right intake manifolds; you cannot change those unless the carbs are removed...at least to the best of my knowledge. I'm also going to examine the CV boots to make sure there is no hole. Might as well replace all the seals and hoses on the carbs again while I am at it.

I am officially stumped beyond stumphood.

Joe
 
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