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Discussion Starter #41
If it's too lean at 7mm you sure don't want to go to 8mm. You were asked the method you used to set the floats. Did you have the carbs upside down or just let the float rest on the pin.
I position the carbs so that the float is barely resting on the needle pin, and then I bend the float tabs until I achieved 7mm.
 

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Joe, I recommend you read the service manual pages through 4-45 to 4-58 to check if you missed anything while the tests you have done, to see the related parts and their connections, and the correct test procedures for the fuel system.
 

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Okay all!

I haven't yet solved the problem, but I feel that I'm getting very close to identifying the issue. Today was 97 degrees and hot, and that's when the bike jerks and spark-knocks even worse, and that was with 93 Octane fuel. It does it even worse with 87 Octane fuel.
What causes intake backfire? Feel free to add anything I've missed:
Joe
The 1500 should not ignition spark knock regardless of fuel used. Very high combustion temperatures will cause problems with a ping and would be due to a very lean running condition and/or overheating. When was the last time coolant level was checked in radiator (not the reserve tank). You need to revisit the carbs for their proper operation and installation and do some tests with carb clean spray added to each intake stream by following this. If you think it is the left side add it while riding when acting up.
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/426066-1500-fuel-mixture-diagnosis-test.html
 

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Discussion Starter #44
Joe, I recommend you read the service manual pages through 4-45 to 4-58 to check if you missed anything while the tests you have done, to see the related parts and their connections, and the correct test procedures for the fuel system.
Great advice! Going to do that shortly because I feel as though I may have missed something. What I know from last nights test is that the bike ran great to some extent after reconnecting the IASA valve. I am 100% percent certain the valve itself is good as I just got it off ebay last week, and I performed the appropriate leak tests and operational tests on the valve, and all checked good.

I woke up this morning with a fresh mind, and something is telling me that the intake hose on the valve (which I believe T's off into 2 directions: one for the left intake manifold, and one for the right intake manifold. It's my theory that after reconnecting the valve yesterday, hose manipulation might have caused a temporary sealing of a leaky hose likely on the left intake manifold. And unless I'm mistaken, the only way to replace this hose is to remove the carbs and the left intake manifold. I will post a picture so everyone can see what I am talking about. I'm going to start the bike up shortly to see if she still runs good. I'll follow up a little later.

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #45
The 1500 should not ignition spark knock regardless of fuel used. Very high combustion temperatures will cause problems with a ping and would be due to a very lean running condition and/or overheating. When was the last time coolant level was checked in radiator (not the reserve tank). You need to revisit the carbs for their proper operation and installation and do some tests with carb clean spray added to each intake stream by following this. If you think it is the left side add it while riding when acting up.
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/426066-1500-fuel-mixture-diagnosis-test.html
This is a great article. I performed a similar test last week when I had the bike on its stand. I saw fuel draining from one of the drain hoses, but it turned out to be spilled fuel from when I was filling up the tank with a gas can. So it was all good. But instead of using a cardboard, I used a simple rag to cover the intake. It ran rough and very rich as I plugged the inlet. Now here's the interesting part. I pulled the forward vacuum hose that controls the inlet duct flipper door, and I plugged it since it seems to draw a constant free-vacuum at the inlet box until the switch inside the filter box (that reacts to colder temperatures) closes, and thus shuts the inlet hot-air door. Well the bike runs better without wavering idle. Unplug the vacuum hose and she runs good for a few seconds, but then starts to waiver again. Probably nothing, but it will definitely run rich with a rag test of the intake. I have also performed this test with the filter off, and a large rag was laid over the left and right carbs, causing it to run very rich.

I recall I had intake filter box issues with my former 2001 Honda Shadow ACE 750. What solved the problem was dumping the filter box, and using velocity stacks with a metallic screen. I never had inlet box problems again, and I never needed an air filter since it used metal screens. I wish they made velocity stacks for the Goldwing as that solves a lot of problems with leaky intake boxes.

Joe
 

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Metal screens do not stop fine gritty particles of dust and sand! If you want an engine to last a while you need a good quality air filter and with all of the controls on these bikes the carburetors are calibrated for the restriction of the stock filter.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Metal screens do not stop fine gritty particles of dust and sand! If you want an engine to last a while you need a good quality air filter and with all of the controls on these bikes the carburetors are calibrated for the restriction of the stock filter.
I agree. :smile2: On my Shadow 750 ACE, I dumped the airbox and installed specially made Velocity stacks and that solved my problems completely as the airbox kept springing leaks. A guy online T.J. Brutal Customs is very good with the 600 and 750 Shadows, and that is where I purchased my V-Stacks from. It uses very fine yet rigid metal screens to stop any large debris from entering into the engine. I had to reject the carbs 1 size up for both the main and pilot jets, and it ran beautiful. I took a 750 with stock 35hp and increased it to about 60hp with the different mods I did, and I still averages about 52mph. Unfortunately, the Goldwing is a very controlled bike which meters air instead of fuel, although by controlling the amount of air, that in turn adjusts the amount of fuel. So in this case, I agree...leave it stock.

The only thing I might consider is deleting the PAIR and the IASA system all-together, leaving only vacuum to be used for the cruise control, the heat-duct door, and the CCU. At the same time, i understand the risks involved with such a drastic change to the GL1500 in deleting said systems. Without the IASA and the PAIR, the rear wheel is likely to lockup during deceleration under high vacuum when/if the clutch is release too fast. So at this point, I will keep the system as is, and continue troubleshooting the bike. But man, what I'd give for a fuel-injection conversion system. :grin3: I'm a little surprised that nobody has developed an injection system conversion kit for the older carbureted GL series bikes.

Anyways, back to more troubleshooting.

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #48 (Edited)
UPDATE:

So today I performed the PAIR system check, and also the IASA valve check. As far as I can tell, they both passed. What I did not realize until today (and correct me if I'm wrong), but the IASA system works WITH the PAIR system. Shot Air from the exhaust system is introduced into the intake manifold which travels from the exhaust, through the outlet fitting of the IASA valve, into the lower part of the PAIR Valve (in which PAIR valve is controlled via a solenoid), through tubes #16 (I think), and into the intake manifold. When the PAIR valve is closed during acceleration, this cuts pressure off to the IASA valve which in turn causes the IASA to close.

When the throttle is snapped to closed during deceleration, the sudden increase in vacuum pressure is relieved when the PAIR solenoid closes which in turn opens the PAIR valve (I suspect the PAIR valve relaxes on its own and thus opens, whereas vacuum pressure atop of the PAIR pulls the valve closed) and thus allows Shot Air from the exhaust to travel into the intake manifold.

Assuming my theory of operation is correct (again correct me if I'm wrong in this thus far), is it possible that the PAIR might be faulty and is not opening and closing at the right time, especially during low RPM intake vacuum, and thus causing the jerkiness until intake vacuum is strong enough to pull the PAIR closed and thus cut off shot air into the intake manifold? Wouldn't this cause a low RPM stumble condition, and also contribute to a lean condition?

Input guys. I need input (short circuit movie from the 1980's).

I've attached an illustration for the IASA valve in the open position, and PAIR Valve in the closed position. The red arrows indicate travel direction of air. Unless I'm mistaken, when the IASA valve is open to relieve intake vacuum pressure, the PAIR valve must be closed. Am I correct? Based on the illustration, if both the PAIR and the IASA valves were open, there would be two directions of travel at the junction from where the PAIR and the IASA meet. So as far as I can tell, one valve must be closed while the other is open to direct air flow. Again, correct me if I'm wrong in this.

On a side note, I've performed the air filter box obstruction test to see if the carbs deliver too much fuel. I did not use a carb board as a shared article suggested; I simply used my hand and slightly covered the intel duct and ran up the throttle; as expected, it ran far too rich. So at this point I still believe my carbs are good.

THEORY: It is my belief that the PAIR might be sticking open to allow air into the exhaust system and is not closing at low RPM. I'm going to test this system again today after dinner. It should close with a slight twist of the throttle (although not too slight or the valve will not close). OR the valve itself is closing but a potential leak might exist in the PAIR system or IASA system in the left intake manifold, and would thus explain the backfire I hear in the left intake system. I also hear an exhaust leak somewhere on the lower left side of the exhaust manifold, or possibly one of he PAIR tube hoses.
 

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NO, there is no exhaust injected into the intake. The pulse secondary air valve injects air into the exhaust and has nothing whatever to do with how the engine runs, it's only emission control. The IASA valve lets air into the intake on deceleration only, if it wasn't closing it wouldn't idle. They share the same hose from the air box but that's all. If it is running lean it has something to do with the carbs or the air jet controllers. And it will run too lean without the proper air filter, if you have a K&N or something like that throw it away.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
NO, there is no exhaust injected into the intake. The pulse secondary air valve injects air into the exhaust and has nothing whatever to do with how the engine runs, it's only emission control. The IASA valve lets air into the intake on deceleration only, if it wasn't closing it wouldn't idle. They share the same hose from the air box but that's all. If it is running lean it has something to do with the carbs or the air jet controllers. And it will run too lean without the proper air filter, if you have a K&N or something like that throw it away.
Ah! I understand now. So the IASA Valve and the PAIR both use the same inlet tube from the forward right side of the filter box. But they do not operate together, and are independent systems. Oh about the filter, I am using a stock air filter.. I don't believe in K&N filters as to me you lose power (I suppose depending on vehicle application) as opposed to gaining power unless of course you do not add the red oil on the filter elements. I've always stuck with stock filters.

Here is what I noticed today.

1. Engine idle, I pulled a vacuum on the CCU (Carburetor Control Unit) and the engine began idling very rough and choppy. Is this normal? Possibly a bad CCU?
2. Performed vacuum test (own idea and not the book) on both the left and right intake manifolds. Both were somewhat balanced (as though I were syncing them), but I noticed that the left intake had a hell of a lot more oscillation of the needle. Mind you that I was using a standard automotive vacuum gauge. The right vacuum gauge had a tiny bit of bouncing at idle, but the left one was exaggerated, almost acting like a sticking intake valve or something.

Question: If the PAIR were faulty (test to be performed) is it possible that exhaust gases are bleeding into the left intake manifold on the left side only, possible because of a failed reed check valve? Actually now that I think of it, both intake manifolds have their own PAIR hoses. Take off one of the vacuum lines (any line on the left intake manifold) and place your finger over it, and you feel a pulse instead of a strong vacuum. For example, I pulled the test hose from the aft left side of the filter box that is connected to the pair and solenoid, and while at idle, it pulsed with tiny puffs of air. Run the engine up above 2,000 RPM and the hose still pulsed. Have I just found the problem?

The books says to idle the engine with this hose and apply a vacuum, and it should hold and no suction should be felt from the PAIR inlet tube (front right side of the filter box). The vacuum DID NOT hold, although the valve appears to have closed as little to no suction could be felt on the forward right tube of the filter box.

Based on the description, does this sound like a leaking PAIR valve?

THEORY: If my logic is correct, it's possible the PAIR is not closing all of the way and allowing pulsed air back into the system (if that's even possible) and would thus explain why vacuum pressure was not held at the test hose. If a reed check valve fails, wouldn't that allow exhaust gases to backflow towards the PAIR or even the entire left vacuum system? Or am I off base here? Otherwise, the pulsing might just be a sticking intake valve. Sounds like it's about time for the good ole seafoam treatment. Any takers?

Sorry to tap into the plethora of Goldwing knowledge here. I appreciate everyone's inputs. Hmmmmm? The more I think of it, this is starting to look more and more like sticking intake valves and that might explain why only the left intake manifold vibrates the gauges needle more than the right intake manifold.
 

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I don't know if you did this or not, I don't remember seeing it and I am not going back over 50 posts to find it. Have you done a proper compression test? Both hot and cold. Have you set up vacuum gauges on it to see how that are acting?
 

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Discussion Starter #52
I don't know if you did this or not, I don't remember seeing it and I am not going back over 50 posts to find it. Have you done a proper compression test? Both hot and cold. Have you set up vacuum gauges on it to see how that are acting?
I did a dry compression test (no oil added) just to give me a general idea of any possible valve problems. I did note that the most forward cylinder on the left side was the weakest at about 190 psi, the rest more more closer to 196 psi. I only tested the left side since that is the side that seems to backfire or pop in the intake manifold under full load in OD gear starting at about 45mph and RPM's just below 2,000. Once the RPM's rise high enough, no more popping is heard in the intake and the bike runs very strong.

I also did a vacuum test on both the left and right intake manifolds using standard automotive vacuum gauges (not sync gauges). The right vacuum gauge needle vibrated, as did the left, but the left gauge (for the left intake manifold) vibrated a hell of a lot more (needle oscillation). I am not burning any oil and the engine only has about 39,000 miles, so I doubt there is anything wrong with the rings. However, given the corrosive nature of modern fuels (BTEX and Ethanol), combined with poor storage and maintenance practices of the farmer I purchased the bike from, I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of my valves are sticking, likely an intake valve.

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Well I must have tested the PAIR valve wrong the first time. I just did it again, and it's holding vacuum as it is supposed to. LOL Don't ask me why, but it seems to check out fine. Disconnect the vacuum hose from the lower aft side of the filter box, and it is joined in with one hose going to the top of the PAIR, and the other going to the solenoid. At idle, you apply vacuum pressure to the hose and vacuum should hold and the PAIR induction tube that makes the gurgling sound when the PAIR is open should stop sucking air; this performed as required. So at this point I'd say the PAIR is functioning correctly.

Now that I think of it, the PAIR seems to be a useless system as all it is doing is feeding fresh hair to the exhaust system, I guess to help supply oxygen to unburned fuels; kind of like an after-burner system. I'm thinking about deleting the PAIR. *Hides under the table* I'm waiting on the first Goldwing mechanic to shoot me. :ROFL:

Has anyone deleted the PAIR system yet? As for the Intake Air Shot Air Valve (IASA), I think I'm keeping that just for safety so as to avoid locking up the rear tire during hard deceleration. Can't have my babe on the back falling off....well if she pisses me off I might. :grin3:

Do we really need the PAIR? Think of the weight I could remove as well as the extra hoses, manifold, reed valves, etc.

In your honest opinion, notwithstanding any SAE (Same As Engineered) folks out there, is there anything detrimental to deleting the PAIR?
 

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Although I am not a mechanic, I can say that this is an engineering issue to cancel or add a system on the current system. If something is used there should be a reason to solve a problem or something during the R&D period.
And also we know that, Honda engineers have cancelled some systems on the engine during the years 88-92, but not on the later models.

You should use the service manual to perform the checks, so that you can understand the system is functioning or not within the design parameters. Otherwise it will be a never ending learning project.

By the way there was a project to convert the carb to injector system, if you want to read. But unfortunately the pictures can not be seen anymore.
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/162-altered-induction/377358-gl1500-efi-conversion-project.html
 

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To me it sounds like an ignition issue. Remember that the voltage required to fire a spak plug is much higher when the engine is loaded. Is the bike even worse if you lug it and try to accelerate? I wonder about resistor caps on the plug wires or a bad coil etc.
When the engine RPM gets up a bit and the load on the engine decreases the voltage required to fire the plug drops. If any part of the ignition system is just marginal it could run OK when the load on the engine is moderate or light but balk when the loads are heavier like when it pulls hard at low RPM.
A scope would be the best way to see if that is the issue. A backyard mechanic can hook a timing light to one plug wire at a time and have a passenger watch the light flash to see if the light flashes irregularity is in sync with the engine. You would have to do it 6 times. Once on each plug wire. Is the problem worse when riding 2 up? I would think it would if the ignition is the issue, but maybe not in lower gears.
 

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Well I must have tested the PAIR valve wrong the first time. I just did it again, and it's holding vacuum as it is supposed to. LOL Don't ask me why, but it seems to check out fine. Disconnect the vacuum hose from the lower aft side of the filter box, and it is joined in with one hose going to the top of the PAIR, and the other going to the solenoid. At idle, you apply vacuum pressure to the hose and vacuum should hold and the PAIR induction tube that makes the gurgling sound when the PAIR is open should stop sucking air; this performed as required. So at this point I'd say the PAIR is functioning correctly.

Now that I think of it, the PAIR seems to be a useless system as all it is doing is feeding fresh hair to the exhaust system, I guess to help supply oxygen to unburned fuels; kind of like an after-burner system. I'm thinking about deleting the PAIR. *Hides under the table* I'm waiting on the first Goldwing mechanic to shoot me. :ROFL:

Has anyone deleted the PAIR system yet? As for the Intake Air Shot Air Valve (IASA), I think I'm keeping that just for safety so as to avoid locking up the rear tire during hard deceleration. Can't have my babe on the back falling off....well if she pisses me off I might. :grin3:

Do we really need the PAIR? Think of the weight I could remove as well as the extra hoses, manifold, reed valves, etc.

In your honest opinion, notwithstanding any SAE (Same As Engineered) folks out there, is there anything detrimental to deleting the PAIR?

The big question is why? The systems you are focused on are not your problem, leave them alone until you fix what's wrong then do as you wish.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
Although I am not a mechanic, I can say that this is an engineering issue to cancel or add a system on the current system. If something is used there should be a reason to solve a problem or something during the R&D period.
And also we know that, Honda engineers have cancelled some systems on the engine during the years 88-92, but not on the later models.

You should use the service manual to perform the checks, so that you can understand the system is functioning or not within the design parameters. Otherwise it will be a never ending learning project.

By the way there was a project to convert the carb to injector system, if you want to read. But unfortunately the pictures can not be seen anymore.
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/162-altered-induction/377358-gl1500-efi-conversion-project.html
I agree.....leave the systems in. Although the PAIR itself is not about engine performance but EPA stuff. I'm not sure but I think the Goldwing and the Valkre are the only two bikes that utilizes the PAIR system. Even so, I will keep it in. I was merely venting with a little humor. I'll figure it out eventually. Hell if I can maintain and repair an F-16 Fighter Jet, I can certainly figure out a motorcycle. LOL

Joe
 

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if I can maintain and repair an F-16 Fighter Jet, I can certainly figure out a motorcycle. LOL

Joe

I hope you didn't go about those in the same way. Stabbing in the dark.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
To me it sounds like an ignition issue. Remember that the voltage required to fire a spak plug is much higher when the engine is loaded. Is the bike even worse if you lug it and try to accelerate? I wonder about resistor caps on the plug wires or a bad coil etc.
When the engine RPM gets up a bit and the load on the engine decreases the voltage required to fire the plug drops. If any part of the ignition system is just marginal it could run OK when the load on the engine is moderate or light but balk when the loads are heavier like when it pulls hard at low RPM.
A scope would be the best way to see if that is the issue. A backyard mechanic can hook a timing light to one plug wire at a time and have a passenger watch the light flash to see if the light flashes irregularity is in sync with the engine. You would have to do it 6 times. Once on each plug wire. Is the problem worse when riding 2 up? I would think it would if the ignition is the issue, but maybe not in lower gears.
You might be on to something huge here because that is exactly what my bike is doing. At low RPM under load (lugging it), in any gear (even 1st), she spark knocks with 87 Octane that can actually be heard, whereas with 93 Octane she jerks without the distinct spark knock sound. Yet the jerking and spark knock sound are the same. This is why I was suspecting a lean condition either caused by a faulty carb (left side) or a vacuum leak. Then again, a jumping plug wire might produce the same thing.

And to answer your other question, yes, she pings worse with a passenger on the back, but within the same RPM range. Sometimes, when with RPM's high enough, the bike will not jerk, but you can hear it fluttering inside the left intake manifold. My timing light broke so that is why I haven't done that test yet. :grin3: I'll see if a friend has one that I can borrow.

I'm leaning towards an ignition problem. Oh, but all of the plugs looked beautiful; neither white nor black; they all looked really clean and I've never seen plugs wit almost 40,000 miles on them look so good. I would assume that a spark problem would lead to fouled plugs.

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #60
I hope you didn't go about those in the same way. Stabbing in the dark.
:ROFL: No we relied on testing equipment but our maintenance manuals are more thorough than the average automotive repair manual. We had accurate troubleshooting trees that starts with the easiest test, to the hardest. We are also required to know how to read schematics, perform voltage checks, and know theory of operation for each system. This is why troubleshooting an F-16 seems to be easier than troubleshooting a Goldwing. :grin3:

There was my last assigned F-16 I used to work on. Aircraft 1355...received top-flier awards about 6 times when I was a younger Airman. I miss working them (I'm retired). The F-16 has always been one of the most badass jets ever, even against the old F-15 Strike Eagles. She was a great jet!
 

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