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Discussion Starter #61
The big question is why? The systems you are focused on are not your problem, leave them alone until you fix what's wrong then do as you wish.
I didn't yet fully understand the theory of operation with the PAIR. And because I did not understand the processes involved with open/close of the PAIR, and misread the first test, I misdiagnosed the PAIR as another vacuum leak. I believe I understand now.

The aft vacuum port supplies vacuum to the PAIR Solenoid which is closed during acceleration. During acceleration, the Solenoid is opened and a vacuum is pulled atop of the PAIR valve. What confused me is why a second vacuum line that T's into the PAIR system is attached to the intake breather on the lower aft left side of the filter box. When the Solenoid is open, how is vacuum able to reach the PAIR valve when the hose attached to the filter box is an open port? That's what confused me; in fact I am still confused. You would think that there would be a check-valve there to prevent vacuum leak during PAIR operation. Refer to the picture to see what I'm talking about.

Now I understand that when the PAIR solenoid is closed (cuts off vacuum), the PAIR valve must move to the open position and is relaxed (I assume by an internal spring) which requires the vacuum previously applied to the top of the valve has to have a way of escaping, hence the reason for the 2nd hose attached to the filter box. So I'm assuming that the vacuum pressure must be strong enough post Solenoid valve that it is able to close the PAIR valve even while vacuum pressure is leaking from the 2nd host attached to the filter box. Or is that hose plugged by a blocked port on the box? This is why I was thinking that a vacuum leak existed on the PAIR system.
 

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Here is a video explaining how the induction system works on GL1500. Although it is for 88 models (I think) it may help understanding the system.
 

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Discussion Starter #64
Goldwings are more sophisticated than F-16s, but the jets are snootier.

Something about having to stay on the highway and roll through the cow crap humbles a machine. :rollingeyes:
:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:

Given where the bike came from (a farmer), you are quite right. :ROFL:

I'll figure it out eventually. The Goldwing is one of the most automated bikes I've seen to-date. I'm used to the V-Twin and manual carbs, although I am also experienced on some of the more modern sport bikes. Once I learn all of the systems, troubleshooting will be much easier.

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #65
Here is a video explaining how the induction system works on GL1500. Although it is for 88 models (I think) it may help understanding the system.
https://youtu.be/Jyf5lrtBZnk
Thanks for providing the video. I have seen this video already, and this was what I originally used as a reference in understanding how the induction system works. I'm getting a pretty good grasp on everything. I know, and can feel, that the problem is going to show its ugly head soon, and it will turn out to be something as simple as a corroded spark plug wire, or as complicated as a faulty Carb-Control Unit. I just hope it isn't the valves, otherwise that might require head removal, unless I'm fortunate enough to use a valve cleaning agent, such as B-12 Chemtool (the best I've seen to-date). Gumout works fair, but B12 works the best. I now there are a lot of seafoam fans out there, but that stuff isn't really good at keeping valves and pistons clean.

Joe
 

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Also, you should check the connector of the ECU, sometimes the pins inside are found to be loose or corroded. Those selenoids, ignition system, fuel pump etc. are all controlled by ECU on your bike (Ignition control unit and carburetor control unit are two separate parts on 88-89 models).
 

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Discussion Starter #67
Also, you should check the connector of the ECU, sometimes the pins inside are found to be loose or corroded. Those selenoids, ignition system, fuel pump etc. are all controlled by ECU on your bike (Ignition control unit and carburetor control unit are two separate parts on 88-89 models).
That is also a possibility since the CCU is part of my list of possible culprits. I also have not excluded the possibility that the coolant temperature sensor under the intake manifold (per the article I read) might be the reason why the CCU is applying incorrect time-advance based on a faulty reading. My only reason for ignoring this as a possibility is the pre-2,000 RPM jerking happens no matter what the temperature is, albeit much less when outside temperatures are below 55+/- degrees.

At this point, there are three things I'm considering as the most likely cause:

1. Faulty ignition system (wires, or coil)
2. Carburetor (possibly CV boot hole)
3. Sticking valve

Right now I'm a little burned out of troubleshooting, so I've taken a break for a few days. I really do not feel like removing all of the plastic again. :laugh: And the bike rides just fine as long as I do not lugg it under 2,000 RPM. More to come folks! Again, I appreciate all of your inputs. If I could afford it, I'd drop it off at a qualified Honda Shop and let them tinker with it for a while. :ROFL: But I hate it when I cannot troubleshoot myself. I've had my Chevy Suburban 1999 model 5.7 Vortec for almost 20 years, and I've been able to keep her running. I used to have misfire problems with my Chevy, and it turned out to be both heads having sticky valves. With almost 300,000 miles on my Chevy, I've managed to keep her running quite well. And she's paid for. I expect to have longevity with my Goldwing as well, although I really wish it were fuel injected instead of carbureted.
 

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Discussion Starter #68
UPDATE:

Performed CAJ2 and CAJ3 test according to pages 4-50 and 4-51 of the maintenance manual. Refer to the two attachments for your reference.

I performed an individual vacuum test of AJ2 and AJ3 solenoids, and both hold vacuum as required. HOWEVER, when performing the tests according to pages 4-50 and 4-51, AJ2 solenoid is OPEN while at 800 RPM (IDLE) when it should be closed. When I apply at least 7.9 InHg to the ECU, AJ2 then closes and no vacuum is lost. However, while at idle, and since I am below 1,000 feet above sea level (about 383 feet ASL), according to the chart, AJ2 and AJ3 should be closed with 0 InHg applies to the ECM. Mind you this is with the bike at idle 800 RPM, both valves should be closed since I am below 1,000 feet ASL, although the manual states this depends on the altitude pressures.

I place my hand on AJ2 and shut off the bike, I do not feel a change. I place my hand on AJ2 and start the bike, I feel a slight click but not too heavy as it does when I apply 7.9 InHG to the ECU. Run the RPM to 2,000 RPM and both AJ2 and AJ3 click (as in open), when according to the manual, AJ3 shouldn't open at all. So both AJ2 and AJ3 are opening nearly at the same time between 7.9 InHg and 15 InHg applied to the ECU or when RPM is increased to 2,000 RPM.

The test is somewhat confusing. But in a nutshell, my problem appears to be AJ2 is opening at all times while at idle (800 RPM's) even though the valve itself is not actually clicking open. Yet apply a little pressure to the ECU (7.9 InHg), and then AJ2 snaps/clicks closed when even at idle it is supposed to be closed. But when it closes, vacuum pressure is still lost. Shut down the bike, and all of a sudden AJ2 is fully closed and vacuum pressure is maintained.

To make it easier to understand, AJ2 should ONLY OPEN with 7.9 InHg applied to ECU and RPM reaches 2,000, this according to both charts. AJ3 should always be closed since I believe 1,000 feet ASL (I believe this is correct; correct me if I'm wrong). Thus, AJ2 should only open when RPM reaches 2,000 on both charts, respective of their vacuum applications to the ECU.

Unless I'm in error, it sounds as though AJ2 is receiving a faulty signal for some reason to slightly open although not all of the way until RPM reach 2,000, or the ECU vacuum reaches at least 7.9 InHg.

Could this be my problem? Or could this be related to a possible vacuum leak somewhere and the ECU is not getting enough vacuum for proper operation.
 

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Disregard your diagnosis train of thought on this because you have said the problem is the left cylinder bank and the AJC's work on both carbs equally, if there was a problem with them it would affect both banks the same.

You need to first be looking down the carb throats to see any abnormalities in their function and operation with fuel sprays from slide and main discharge ports while underway with it acting up.
 

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UPDATE:

Performed CAJ2 and CAJ3 test according to pages 4-50 and 4-51 of the maintenance manual. Refer to the two attachments for your reference.

I performed an individual vacuum test of AJ2 and AJ3 solenoids, and both hold vacuum as required. HOWEVER, when performing the tests according to pages 4-50 and 4-51, AJ2 solenoid is OPEN while at 800 RPM (IDLE) when it should be closed. When I apply at least 7.9 InHg to the ECU, AJ2 then closes and no vacuum is lost. However, while at idle, and since I am below 1,000 feet above sea level (about 383 feet ASL), according to the chart, AJ2 and AJ3 should be closed with 0 InHg applies to the ECM. Mind you this is with the bike at idle 800 RPM, both valves should be closed since I am below 1,000 feet ASL, although the manual states this depends on the altitude pressures.

I place my hand on AJ2 and shut off the bike, I do not feel a change. I place my hand on AJ2 and start the bike, I feel a slight click but not too heavy as it does when I apply 7.9 InHG to the ECU. Run the RPM to 2,000 RPM and both AJ2 and AJ3 click (as in open), when according to the manual, AJ3 shouldn't open at all. So both AJ2 and AJ3 are opening nearly at the same time between 7.9 InHg and 15 InHg applied to the ECU or when RPM is increased to 2,000 RPM.

The test is somewhat confusing. But in a nutshell, my problem appears to be AJ2 is opening at all times while at idle (800 RPM's) even though the valve itself is not actually clicking open. Yet apply a little pressure to the ECU (7.9 InHg), and then AJ2 snaps/clicks closed when even at idle it is supposed to be closed. But when it closes, vacuum pressure is still lost. Shut down the bike, and all of a sudden AJ2 is fully closed and vacuum pressure is maintained.

To make it easier to understand, AJ2 should ONLY OPEN with 7.9 InHg applied to ECU and RPM reaches 2,000, this according to both charts. AJ3 should always be closed since I believe 1,000 feet ASL (I believe this is correct; correct me if I'm wrong). Thus, AJ2 should only open when RPM reaches 2,000 on both charts, respective of their vacuum applications to the ECU.

Unless I'm in error, it sounds as though AJ2 is receiving a faulty signal for some reason to slightly open although not all of the way until RPM reach 2,000, or the ECU vacuum reaches at least 7.9 InHg.

Could this be my problem? Or could this be related to a possible vacuum leak somewhere and the ECU is not getting enough vacuum for proper operation.
I cannot say if this is the problem since you are way beyond where I would have been at this point but have you traced all the lines to be sure all of them are where they are supposed to be? None crossed. Have you also checked all of the lines with a vacuum gauge to see if they are producing the vacuum readings they are supposed to at the specified times? I know you are checking all of the solenoids and valves but if the vacuum signals are not right the valves and solenoids will not work even if they test good.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
I cannot say if this is the problem since you are way beyond where I would have been at this point but have you traced all the lines to be sure all of them are where they are supposed to be? None crossed. Have you also checked all of the lines with a vacuum gauge to see if they are producing the vacuum readings they are supposed to at the specified times? I know you are checking all of the solenoids and valves but if the vacuum signals are not right the valves and solenoids will not work even if they test good.
As far as I know, I checked the solenoid operation based on vacuum inputs per the charts. On the first test, t-off the ECM hose and connect a vacuum pump, and also 2 vacuum pumps to each of the lower ports of AJ2 and AJ3. Now since I only had 2 vacuum pumps, I had to perform a test on each AJ solenoid individually. So I tested AJ2 first. At idle RPM (800), and with 0 vacuum applied to the ECM, AJ2 should be closed. IT IS NOT CLOSED and will not hold a vacuum. Shut the bike off, and draw a vacuum on AJ2 and it holds. For some reason, AJ2 is opening even at idle when it is not supposed to open until 2,000 RPM with about 7.9 InHg appled to the ECU vacuum port (using a vacuum pump). Here's where it gets weird. Draw just a slight vacuum while at idle, to the ECM (no more than 5 InHg), AJ2 will snal closed but then suddenly open. It's as though it were receiving sporadic commands.

As for AJ3, it should never open at all since I am below 1,000 feet ASL (Above Sea Level), if I understand the book correctly. Were I above 1,000 feet ASL, then AJ3 would open at 2,000 RPM. But since I below 1,000 feet ASL, AJ3 is almost taken completely out of the picture; or at least it should be. And my problem is AJ3 is opening when it is not supposed to. This tells me I either have a faulty computer, or the computer might be getting fluctuating vacuum readings since it measures vacuum pressure from the left and right intake manifolds. So I decided to check the vacuum hose from the intake manifold with a vacuum gauge. And MAN was that needle bouncing. And I'm not talking about slight vibrations; I mean literally bouncing, or rather oscillating big time. In the automotive world, this is indicative of sticking intake valves.

Now it is possible one of my spark plug wires is skipping. With all of the covers off, I can hear a kind of ticking sound from the forward left side of the engine, almost as though a spark were jumping. But it is so hard to tell. How do you access the plugs to wear they are connected to the coil? I can only see the wires where they are connected to the plugs. But all go deep into the forward part of the engine. So I need to remove both fans to access them?

Lastly, I decided to run a different non-manual kind of test. I disconnected both AJ2 and AJ3 solenoids since they both close as required without 12vdc. I tested them without power to be sure; both hold a vacuum. Took the bike for a spin and there was VERY LITTLE jerking. It did a few times, but only in 3rd gear while under 25mph, so I expected it to bump a little. But after making about 4 passes around my house, the bike ran smooth EXCEPT a pop or backfire on the left intake manifold when I juiced the throttle from a 25mph rolloff. It only jerked that once when I heard the backfire. So I'm thinking you might be right....Bad wire somewhere! Gotta wait for the engine to cool down before I can inspect the wires. I noticed that the wires on the right side of the bike looked very white towards the inside of the bike. That can't be good!

Joe
 

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And MAN was that needle bouncing. And I'm not talking about slight vibrations; I mean literally bouncing, or rather oscillating big time. In the automotive world, this is indicative of sticking intake valve.
Joe
Sticking? Not too likely but could be bent or have a busted/worn valve spring but these things rarely happen on the super durable 1500 engine unless through accident, misuse or abuse.
 

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Discussion Starter #73
Sticking? Not too likely but could be bent or have a busted/worn valve spring but these things rarely happen on the super durable 1500 engine unless through accident, misuse or abuse.
Well I painstakingly checked all 6 wires....what a freaking job. It's a bitch getting those things reconnected, especially with an engine that is still very warm. I ran an OHMs test on all the wires and they appeared to be fine. Too much trouble test the coils....lol That'll have to be for another day. But at this point, I'm certain the wires are fine. They are protected by a heat sleeve, and none of them appear to have any insulation damage. I ran the engine after inspecting them, and sprayed each one down with water; there was no change to engine operation. So at this point, minus the possibility of bad coils, I'm going to call the ignition system good...for the time being. And since the backfiring inside of the intake manifold only seems to happen on the left side, that is the side I will concentrate on.

What I do know (or at least strongly believe) is that the left and right intake manifolds SHOULD have steady vacuum. There should be no wavering or erratic bouncing of the needle at idle (vacuum gauge needle). I agree with you that the GL1500 is a super reliable bike, but unfortunately had a very unreliable owner who left his bike parked outside in the snow and in the rain without any shelter or cover WITH ethanol BTEX fuel and that without any fuel stabilizer or treatment. He is doing the very same thing to the Goldwing he has now...sold this one to me, and bought a 1998 model with over 300,000 miles on it. The guy who owned it prior to him was a motorcycle racer, so their might be some possibility for abuse. The owner before the gentlemen I purchased the bike from modified his exhaust system by cutting the baffles out of the stock mufflers, and installed end caps (chrome). I'm not sure about Goldwings, but on V-Twin Shadows, it is almost a MUST to rejet the carbs when free-flowing exhaust has been introduced to the system. The larger jets is needed to increase fuel delivery in order to reduce popping in the pipes. I'm curious if the free flowing garbage that's on my bike now might be calling for a rejetting of the carbs....I doubt it, but just a though.

Okay so I'm at a stand still for tonight...bike is all torn down. I'm not yet convinced the carbs are the problem, nor the ignition system, so I'm going to write those two off for now. This leaves possible vacuum leaks from a hose underneath the intake manifolds, or the intake valves. If an intake valve is not sealing well, it will not close tight enough and so blowby will seep past the valves and back into the intake manifold; this is easily identified by a shaky vacuum gauge.

Exhaust valves are the most common ones that leak with enough corrosion. However, because oil companies reformulated their fuel mixtures in the late 90's, mixing BTEX additives to the fuel, engines of all kinds have been failing far too early, mostly from clogged or damaged fuel systems, or gunked valves. BTEX stands for Benzene, Toluene, Ethylbenzene, and Xylene. Tests show that Toluene and Xylene are very destructive to plastics, seals, and copper. It is my opinion that the oil companies added BTEX to intentionally damage engines so that consumers would blame this on the ethanol industry. Ethanol is not corrosive as people assume; it's BTEX that is doing the dirty work, while alcohol gets the blame. Ethanol, which can be made from many resources such as trash, food wastes, wood, certain crops, and even plastic wastes is a very good renewable energy source. While its BTU output is less than gasoline, this can be compensated by forced induction systems (turbo), increased cam duration and lift (for increased compression), and/or advance ignition-timing.

My point is that BTEX, when unburned, can leak from faulty fuel injectors or leaky carbs, and buildup around a closed intake valve. Gasoline will evaporate over time, leaving a small oily residue. Alcohol will also evaporate leaving little to no residue. But BTEX, oh boy that is a different story. This crap forms a hardened candy-apple type coating that is hell getting off. It dries up into a carmel state and once completely hardened, it will require a drill and a wire brush to get it off. I found this out when I rebuilt my Chevy engine, and it was my intake valves that were caked with this crap so bad that I literally had to use a grinder to get it off. Not even soaking the valves in parts cleaner overnight would remove the stuff.

The previous owner ignored his carburetor issues, and his floats were likely sticking, and so fuel would leak down into the intake manifold, which we all know is bad juju. It is my opinion that the clicking sound I am hearing is lifter noise, likely from a sticking intake valve from the foremost cylinder on the left side (I do not know which cylinder number that is yet). Since the poor bike was left in the snow and rain for even 2 years straight with little to no riding, it is likely some (or one) of the intake valves is sticking and not closing all of the way. So for now, I'm using B12 Chemtool fuel treatment which I hope will dissolve any buildup. If not, and it turns out the intake valve is indeed sticking, then I may have no choice but to remove the heads and have them cleaned and relapped. In a few moments, I am headed to the parts store to pickup a can of seafoam spray and I'm going to let the engine soak over night. Oops! So much for that idea...didn't realize it's almost 10:00PM. LOL So guess it will have to wait til morning.

I'm open for other suggestions folks. Believe me, I do not want it to be the valves. Where's a freaking Jeany when you need one. Major Nelsen didn't realize how lucky he was to have such a fine, hot, and attractive Jeany. LOL

Good night all!
 

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A cylinder leakage test will identify any valve sealing problems quickly, no guesswork. B12 can clean almost anything but it will take a can or two to do the job. You can mix it pretty strong and get away with it. But running a few tankfuls takes time, so it might just be faster and easier to tear down the carbs and clean and inspect them.
I don't know about a wing, but every other bike I've ever had required re-jetting after any intake or exhaust mod. A real easy way to check that is to get on the road at part throttle cruise and slowly turn on the choke. If the engine speeds up or pulls harder, you are running too lean. If you plan on fixing the exhaust, do that before you jet the carbs, or you will just be doing it again. Using an exhaust analyzer is really the best way to get the mixture spot on.
 

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Discussion Starter #75
A cylinder leakage test will identify any valve sealing problems quickly, no guesswork. B12 can clean almost anything but it will take a can or two to do the job. You can mix it pretty strong and get away with it. But running a few tankfuls takes time, so it might just be faster and easier to tear down the carbs and clean and inspect them.
I don't know about a wing, but every other bike I've ever had required re-jetting after any intake or exhaust mod. A real easy way to check that is to get on the road at part throttle cruise and slowly turn on the choke. If the engine speeds up or pulls harder, you are running too lean. If you plan on fixing the exhaust, do that before you jet the carbs, or you will just be doing it again. Using an exhaust analyzer is really the best way to get the mixture spot on.
Wow! I hadn't thought of using the choke at cruise speed. I will give that a shot tomorrow! Awesome! When i used to rejet carbs after intake/exhaust mods, I always did it by feel. Not very accurate, but negligible. The idle jet was the easiest. On my Shadow ACE 750, if the idle jets were too large, it would only need about 1 1/2 to 2 turns out of the mixture screws and would immediately smell too rich and smoke could be seen exiting the exhaust. If the idle jets were too small, more than 3 1/2 turns would be needed of the mixture screws and even then it wouldn't idle high enough unless you adjusted the idle adjustment screw to near maximum.

Main jets were a little harder to determine. I always worked my way large to down. If the main jets were too large, and you throttle it to maximum, the engine would stumble and sound rough. If the main jets were too small, and you throttled it hard, the nose of the bike would sway down as if it lost power.

I'm wondering if the free flowing exhaust on the wing (something a former owner did and I freaking hate it!) might be causing the low RPM stumble. Yes, I do plan on repairing it. I found a nice set of used factory mufflers for $192 bucks, but have to wait until next month to buy them. Man I hate it when the cost of living is too high! Between food and gas, it's hard spending money on toys (man machines). I could always use a credit card, but I hate those damn things. LOL

Anyways, turning in for the night all. Good night!
 

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If you have not checked that vacuum line be sure to do so but if you plan on putting stock exhaust on then I would just hold off on any other testing until that is done. You will be making a major change in airflow so anything you do now will be changed by that and putting on the new exhaust just may solve all of these problems. Or maybe not by why keep trying until after it is on? If yu suspect a bad valve then do a cylinder leak down test but do it on all 6 cylinders.
 

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Discussion Starter #78
Also, I am not sure mentioned before but, there is a hose under the carb most of the time found to be collapsed, bent or damaged etc. It is the vacuum hose connected between the carb and the ECU for adjusting the ignition advance. You could check it if you haven't yet.
Thanks buddy. I changed those when I had the carbs off last year; one of them (left one) had a hold at the bend. All vacuum lines have been replaced, EXCEPT a few that run under the intake manifolds. It's possible one of them has a hole. The main one to be concerned about under the manifolds are the hoses that are connected to the Intake Air Shot Air system control. There is a vacuum hose and tube that connects to both the left and right intake manifolds, and I believe two check valves. These hoses supply air to the intake manifolds when the IASA valve opens to reduce high RPM vacuum shock during deceleration. It's possible one of them is leaking or likely has a bad check valve, and could thus explain the erratic vacuum behavior. It's so screwed up that syncing the carbs is difficult because the vacuum keeps fluctuating bad. I think the only way to repair these hoses is to remove the carbs.
 

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Discussion Starter #79
If you have not checked that vacuum line be sure to do so but if you plan on putting stock exhaust on then I would just hold off on any other testing until that is done. You will be making a major change in airflow so anything you do now will be changed by that and putting on the new exhaust just may solve all of these problems. Or maybe not by why keep trying until after it is on? If yu suspect a bad valve then do a cylinder leak down test but do it on all 6 cylinders.
I was going to do a cylinder leak down test last night, but I was too tired. So will do that today. I will do it both dry and wet. If I remember correctly, if pressure increases after squirting oil into the cylinder, this would indicate ring failure. If no change (or little change) happens, and the pressure is about 20% percent less than the other cylinders, then that is a leaky valve seat. I need a borescope so I could simply look inside the chamber and rotate the engine with the valves open. This will let me see if any hard buildup exists.
 

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I was going to do a cylinder leak down test last night, but I was too tired. So will do that today. I will do it both dry and wet. If I remember correctly, if pressure increases after squirting oil into the cylinder, this would indicate ring failure. If no change (or little change) happens, and the pressure is about 20% percent less than the other cylinders, then that is a leaky valve seat. I need a borescope so I could simply look inside the chamber and rotate the engine with the valves open. This will let me see if any hard buildup exists.
Sounds like you are talking about a compression test. Leakdown tests are only done dry and involve a leakdown tester. if excessive then you listen at the oil fill, exhaust or intake for air escaping and that tells you where your problem lies. As far as I am concerned a leakdown test is much more accurate and telling than a compression test.
 
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