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#3 cylinder/carb issue?:?





I "saved" a 1985 aspencade from the horrors of a Kawasaki dealer, and now I am beginning to wonder, if I should have just kept on walking.



25,000 miles, very clean overall, when I picked it up, we had to push it on the trailer, I talked with the mechanic who rides a '88 goldwing to get as much history as possible on the bike, we put a new battery in it to get it to turn over, it would crank, but barely run.



According to the mechanic, the original owner had stored the bike for a loooong time, he took it to a Honda shop to get it back in service, Honda supposedly went through the carbs, put new timing belts, new plugs, and wires, and never could get the bike to run "correctly" owner took it to the Kawasaki shop, traded it in on a Kawasaki 4 wheeler, and the dealer took it on trade. The mechanic that worked on the bike said that he went again through the carbs, replaced the fuel filter and fuel pump, (aftermarket rated at 4 psi) and he pulled the right head off, because number 1 cylinder had low compression, and it does appear that he did that, after putting all back together, bike still ran the same. That shop sold it "needs engine work"



I bought with intentions of helping a friend get on a Gold Wing at a decent price, so we started back tracking over what had previously been done, pulled the lower fairings off and immediately found a leaking o ring on the water pipe on the right head, repaired that, pulled the timing covers to verify "new belts" new hondas, replaced the covers, did a cursory check of the timing, appeared to be right on, at this point I wish I had checked more closely, but 2 of us looked at it, and the other guy is younger with a lot better eyesight...LOL, anyway, the ugly new "yellow" plug wires were the next thing we looked at and low and behold, the right coil had two wires going to the right side, 1, 3, and the left coil had 2 wires going to 2, 4, which I guess to somebody made sense, probably would have to me at one point, regardless, we changed the wires, to the correct positions, verified that the coil connections were correct, then cranked the bike, and it was amazing how much different that it ran.



Put it all back together, thinking we had found the problem, changed all of the fluids, coolant, brake, clutch, oil and filter, and my friend took it for a 250 mile ride, came back said it did good except that it had a slight hesitation rolling the throttle at about 70, so my response at that point was "seafoam" and ride it, thought not much more about it. That was a couple of months ago, so the "friend" decided to move to another state, the 1200 came back home to me, since I already have 3 Gold Wings I did not need another, promptly put it up for sale, I had not ridden the bike at all at this point, so I take it out for a ride, and it actually will start bucking at 3000, 3200 rpm in any gear, and seems to get a little worse as the bike warms up, the rpms will get higher, but it is still continuously missing.



Yesterday, I decided to change the plugs, two reasons, we had not pulled the plugs, because they were supposedly new, and I wanted to see what they looked like, in fact they were new, and all looked good except, 3 seemed to have not been firing as it looked wetter that the other plugs, I changed them all anyway, after checking the gap. I cranked the bike, didn't sound any different, so I started pulling wires off individually, when I pulled 3 off, made no difference, in running, shut the bike down, and in trying the put the cap back on, it came off in my hand, in looking the wire had never been screwed on the cap terminal, remedied that, put wire back on, cranked it, noticeably difference, went back over each one of the caps found same thing on 2 others, after making sure that all 4 plugs were firing, and it was a noticably difference having 4 cyclinders versus 3, again I am thinking, well that solves that, put it back together, runs much better but still the same missing at higher rpms.



This morning I have removed all of the plastic again, and this time the false tank so I could get to the coil end of the wires, and the coils, I have measured the primary and secondary of the coils, through the wires, and both measurements track with what the manual describes, I then started trying to find the connector for the pulse generators, then realized my manual was describing the location for an '84, and the '85 is on the front, finally traced it and found it, I had run the bike long enough for it to have 6 bars showing, when I checked the resistance, it showed about 412 ohms on each one and testing to ground from each wire I found one lead that would measure very high resistance to ground, but only one, the one for 3, 4, cylinders. According to the manual that I have, the resistance should be 1200 ohms, I saw some comment on here that it should be in the 400 ohm range. Ater I read that, I went back out and measured again, the bike had cooled down considerably and the

the reading is 364 ohms, and the reading to ground is gone completely. Perhaps, this has been the whole issue all along? If you have documentation for the correct values I would appreciate it.



Thanks for reading, I needed the vent!



:ROFL:

Ben
 

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I can't tell you for sure what the 85 Aspy is supposed to read. I have a digital version of the Honda shop manual that appears to be for the 84 model because it shows the pulse gens to be at the rear of the motor. It specifies 1200 ohms + or - 100 ohms for each in this manual. Could be different for the 85.
 

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I think, from what I have gathered on this forum that the PGs don't cause any performance problems, just quits when they go bad. I am working on a 1200 and sometimes it would start, sometimes not. The connector to the PGs was the problem, I could hold it together and it would start. Had to remove the female terminals and squeeze them tighter so they would make connection. It had 1 bad PG to begin with and would not fire at all, it showed infinite ohms. I think the good 1 showed about 400 ohms.
 

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I have the same manual that shows 1200 ohms, and maybe it was on the '84, and all of the post that I read indicated it was a run or no run, but my curiosity is the high resistance to ground when it got hot, that went away when it cooled down. I may be chasing the wrong issue, but that's where I am at the moment, there is always tomorrow..(maybe):ROFL:Thanks for your suggestions!



Ben
 

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Continuity to ground when hot no matter how small but not when cold means the insulation is breaking down and they need replacing.
 

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After '84: 330 +- 33 Ohms

The only sure way is to put in a new set.

If it clears the problem your away to the races, if not, well you will have a spare set, they will go eventually
 

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I agree with the new set, as well as with the insulation breaking down, and I am thinking that I would be chasing rabbits, if I went further without replacing them first, but since I am ordering, is there anything else from an ignition standpoint that would possibly be involved? I am not "positive" that it is ignition, but sure seems that way to me.



Thanks Tricky, Ken for your thoughts, and no Dennis, I haven't ruled out the rear brake switch!



Ben
 

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After seeking the wisdom of others, and having some idea of the history of this bike, I ordered the PG yesterday, along with an oem fuel pump, generally takes about 6-7 days to get the parts so I will continue this thread after installing the new parts, and have fingers crossed that the PG solves the problem, it's not open, but when it warms up, the high resitance reading to ground on one leg, has gotta be causing some issue. and as Tricky says, if that ain't the problem, then I have a spare set.



And Dennis, I am not even going to check the brake light switch until the PG is installed.:ROFL:



Ben
 

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Received the parts today, today PG and OEM fuel pump, going to get started with the rest of the story:action:



Ben
 

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Once more I checked the "old pulse generators" before removing, one of them reads proper ohms, now the other side is completely open. Since I am replacing them, I cut the connector off to make the removal a bit easier, taped a string to the end and pulled it out. Now I check with the connector removed, one side still open, go and cut 3 inches from the unit, check still show open.



pulled the timing mark plug, lined up timing mark, checked the pulleys, dead on timing marks:smiler:, checked tension on belts,:smiler:.



put covers back on reinstalled radiator, after rerouting new PG cables, filled with coolant, went through my mental check list, okay, lets see if it starts, fired right up, happened to look down, oil on my boots:(forgot to put the timing plug back in:shock:went back to check my "mental" check list, couldn't find it:?so maybe it;'s time to use paper. Cleaned up my mess, used the last of the "cat litter".



To shorten this story, the question, it does not run much better with the new PG's, although maybe some, still kinda breaks up the higher the RPM's, haven't put it on the road yet, nor have I changed out the fuel pump yet, kinda wanted to try one thing at a time.



I have spark at each cylinder, and as I pull the plugs, one at a time, rpm's drop, same as it did with the old PG's I am scratching my head as to how it could have spark on all cylinders, with one of the old PG's completly open? Ignition control unit?



While I ponder this, I will go ahead and change out the fuel pump to the new OEM, and change the fuel filter, tomorrow, and continue to look for my 1200 manual.

If it turns out to bethe rear brake light switch, I will know that Dennis had something to do with this bike.:smiler:

Any thoughts?



:watching:



Ben
 

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hunter27h wrote:
To shorten this story, the question, it does not run much better with the new PG's, although maybe some, still kinda breaks up the higher the RPM's, haven't put it on the road yet, nor have I changed out the fuel pump yet, kinda wanted to try one thing at a time.



I have spark at each cylinder, and as I pull the plugs, one at a time, rpm's drop, same as it did with the old PG's I am scratching my head as to how it could have spark on all cylinders, with one of the old PG's completly open? Ignition control unit?




Any thoughts?



:watching:



Ben
From what I know about it, it will not run at all with a bad PG. I have read that sometimes the wires have to be switched in the connector to make it run right.

I know what you mean about the mental check list, I loose mine often.
 

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hunter27h wrote:
While I ponder this, I will go ahead and change out the fuel pump to the new OEM, and change the fuel filter, tomorrow, and continue to look for my 1200 manual.

Any thoughts?



:watching:



Ben
Okay, finally changed out the fuel filter, and went back to a new OEM fuel pump (just to get original) changed out the new "yellow spark plug wires" to black 7mm copper core wires reusing the boots, disconnected and cleaned all connectors. I have convinced myself at least that the bike will run with just one PG, just won't run well, and it still ain't running well. Going back over everything yesterday, I cranked the bike, let it warm up some, little poofs back a couple of times, like backfires, after 2 bars on temp guage, at idle about 1100 rpm, I pulled each of the plug wires again, at idle, on each cyclinder, rpms drop, I revved up 1500 rpms, did the same thing, on cylinder 3, no change in RPM. I checked all the way around again, 1,2, and 4, the rpm would drop, but not on 3. Shut it down, put an old plug in the wire for #3 cylinder, nice consistent spark, pulled all the plugs did a compression check on all cylinders, with my fingers crossed, with a fairly weak battery, AND the throttle WFO (per Dennis) all four cylinders give the same reading.



Now that it is down to cylinder #3, which has spark, has compression,I guess the next step is Carbs!:stumped:
 

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Well I thought surely something would have happened over night with the issue, I had a thought, I would open the bowl on #3 carb, to see if we had gas, and yes we do, opened the top of the slide, looked at it, appears to be okay, my quandry is put it all back together, add more seafoam and run it, pull the carbs, or take it to a shop. Since I haven't had 1200 carbs off the bike, I am somewhat intimidated by the process, reading the manual. But right now it seems that my "main" issue has to do with that carb. Anything else that I can check?:praying:



Ben
 

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I have worked on everything else over the winter months, avoiding pulling the carbs, finally gave up yesterday and pulled the carbs off the bike, went straight to #3 carb, pulled the bowl off and pulled the slow jet first, I could blow through the main jet, and the float was free and as I had the rack upside down, I could not blow through the fuel line, but as soon as I moved the float slightly, I could blow into the bowl through the fuel line. The slow jet #35 appeared to be plugged, I could not see light through it, and I really couldn't tell if I was able to blow through it or not. I put 60 lbs of air on it, and the passages for both the slow jet and the main jet, as well as the jets, the slide moves freely. I can now see light through the slow jet, anything else I should check or do while I have carbs off? I am remembering that cylinder would run as long as I had the choke on, but otherwise, it was mostly not running on #3 cylinder.



Any advice is welcomed:praying:



Ben
 

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Get a can of spray carb cleaner and spray through the idle passage and the jet. While you are at it pull the other bowls and give the idle circuits in those a shot of the cleaner also. Clean out any debris in the bowls. Check the float levels while you are there also.
 

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Thanks Dave:thumbsup:



Ben
 

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Fuel would be number one on the hit parade. Pulse generators fire two cylinders at a time. That is why there are only two. The secondary side of the ignition coil has a spark plug on each end of the secondary coil. When the cylinder that is ready to fire receives the necessary spark to fire it does, the spark plug on the other end of the secondary coil simply sparks into a fuel free cylinder.

So if the pulse generators were firing 3 of the 4 cylinders they had to be functioning.
 

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Thanks for the response:waving:



Totally agree, the #3 cylinder not running, came to light after replacing the PG'S, and I know for a fact that there was an intermittant issue with the pg for that cylinder, I measured the resistance, before and after removing and replacing with new, at one point one side of the pg had a high resistance to ground, and ultimately went open, after removing it, I cut the leads about 3 inches from the end and measured resistance, completely open.



I am convinced, (problem lies with fuel) and am going back to the carb once more, and make sure as I can that is not stopped up. After convincing myself that removing the rack wasn't that big a deal, I am not hesitant to replace them and try it, plus I found someone locally that will rebuild them completly, that part I don't want to get into. This bike is not my primary rider, so it can sit a while longer.



Ben
 

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monkeytrucker wrote:
Fuel would be number one on the hit parade. Pulse generators fire two cylinders at a time. That is why there are only two. The secondary side of the ignition coil has a spark plug on each end of the secondary coil. When the cylinder that is ready to fire receives the necessary spark to fire it does, the spark plug on the other end of the secondary coil simply sparks into a fuel free cylinder.

So if the pulse generators were firing 3 of the 4 cylinders they had to be functioning.
After much night timecogitation I remembered on exception to the above about how two plugs are fired simultainsly. I remembered an instance on an Oldsmobile automobile that had dropped a cylinder but it's paired cylinder still had output. I checked the injector circuit and found that it was still triggering and the injector was functioning like it was supposed to. In fact the exhaust analizer was showing a high hydrocarbon (raw gas in the exhaust manifold)situation. Finally did the old fashioned ignition test of pulling the plug wire and sticking a spark plug in the end and laying it on the engine. Absolutely no spark. What I found was the coil had shorted to ground on the offending cylinder. Therefore the paired plug still worked but the other end did not as the short allowed the coil to think it was firing both plugs.



Us old fashioned wrench twisters had to relearn testing engines for a dead cyl. by pulling the plug wire. The paired spark plugs would drop 2 cylinders. That is when I started using my infrared temperature tool to look at the heat comind out of each cylinder. Dead cyl. lower temps at the manifold.



Thinking about the plugs and their firing made me think about how us old timers remembered the firing order for 99.9% of inline six engines. It is 153624 or Too young, Too old, Just right.
 

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after "airing" out the carbs, filled the bowls with carb cleaner, left them sit over night, reinstalled them yesterday afternoon, charged the battery overnight. fired it up this morning, after finally getting it to run, left it running at idle for a few minutes, to warm up some, rechecked the spark plug wiring, cranked it up again, it seems to be doing great at idle, #3 cylinder is now firing, so perhaps this issue is almost done. Going to replace the fuel lines and start to put it all back together for the road test.



:praying:



Ben
 
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