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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Dammit - I just wrote out a HUGE long post but it was dumped when I had to log in upon posting it! ARGH. Well - here, for starters, a taste of how I feel about the Goldwing:


http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/596617-gl1000-endurance-racer-1976-spa-francorchamps-bol-d-iomtt-etc.html


I have a very well developed concept for a new 'Wing. I wish to heck I could photoshop something together into a picture. Can't draw worth a damn.....


But I'm telling you - I've got the very picture of a new 'Wing in mind down to the last detail here. I've just gotta take a breather, 'cause losing such a long stream of verbiage due to a such a glitch is a wee bit frustrating. I will however, get back to this subject.


For starters, this idea I've had for my "CB900K0 Bol Bomber" for some time here, of using the GL1500 front end with a wire-spoke conversion of a PC800 "HUB", for a "Faux-Leading-Shoe" pseudo drum brake. 'Cause the shrouded rotors have become synonymous with the 'Wing, perhaps even before the GL1500 itself. But so too, the 'Wing needs to return to it's roots and get back onto some slick wire-spoked rims.


And I've got an image of those wheels right down to the rim selection, spoke count, and hub design. So I'm not talking about the type of "parts-bin-special" wire spoke conversion that went on with the new CB1100 - It's nice that Honda listened to my many pleading e-mails about the need for 'em, but they really should've gone back to the roots of the SOHC/DOHC four-cylinder CB in this case.


Heck - while I'm on the subject, Honda needs to finally flesh out the 2007 Tokyo Motor Show's "CB1100R" concept bike. I mean, SOMEBODY'S gonna make a frame and bodywork kit for such conversions, ala Moto Martin, Bakker, Harris Magnum etc etc. Why not get in on the ground floor and do it ONE'S SELF?


The new Valkyrie fall short of what it should've been. But then again, the ORIGINAL Valkyrie fell short of it's own potential, so why not repeat that disappointment?


Give me half an hour with a police sketch artist and I'll give you an awesome design for the new 'Wing. A 'Wing that'll keep it's own market demographic AND attract new riders to the Marque.


For starters, let's forget the damage done by Craig Friggin' Vetter, and his Windbreaking fly-swatter. GO NEKKID should be the motto of the basic 'Wing itself, not merely that of the Valkyrie derivative. I'm picturing SEVERAL different trim packages. Classic racing fairings in 1/4, 1/2, and full coverage - what's more a DUSTBIN fairing, something like a cross between that old Morbidelli in the Honda Collection Hall, a Guzzi V8, and the police patrol bike from the recent movie "DREDD" - But also the plexiglass windscreen, so bravely brought back and updated on the Ducati GT1000 Touring rig only a few years ago - I'm talking about a 'Wing that can be all it's ever been up 'til now and MORE. Trim packages that are customizable - oh there could still be the 747 style cockpit for the uber-nerd 'Wing people, but the original '75 GL1000 Naked bike would be channeled through this new wing also.



There's gotta be a round-tube frame for another thing. Though I'm not saying to ditch the perimeter frame thing either. One might look to the Bimota HB2/HB3 for inspiration, or more to the point the Triumph Speed Triple! It doesn't have to be a trellised structure at all, and the Triumphs used a parallel welded/conjoined pair of thick tubes to good effect. The GL1500 & GL1800 chassis isn't such a bad deal though, and if it's too much to ask for this change, I'm sure the normal beam / deltabox frame could be used without ruining the whole effect.


It's a major element of a retro-styled bike though, the tubular steel as opposed to box-section steel. It belies a certain history which accepts little substitution.


After my "CB900K0 Bol Bomber" - an '82 CB900F based homage to the '65 CB450K0 Black Bomber, with it's polished CB1100R Aluminum gas-tank lending a "Toaster-tank" effect, I plan to jump straight into a Sabre/Magna build, a pseudo-replica of the '60s Czech Grand Prix racer the "CZ Type 860" - but with Interceptor style rims, I've got a pair set aside with a 3.50x16" NOS Super-Akront rim for up front, with a 4.25x18" rear, for that Interceptor 16/18 stance, of a bull tucked down low scraping it's hooves on the ground, ready to butt heads with it's handlebars. A copy of this here CB1100R alloy gas-tank from my DOHC-four project, with modified tunnel for the Magna/Sabre backbone, and like my DOHC-four it needs the seat-cover from the CB750K0 Sandcast itself. And for the piece de la resistance, and an even further retro-fried interpretation of the VF Interceptor: a fixed quarter-fairing with abrupt fly-screen up top - but instead of the Interceptor's angular lines, picture the bubble from the front of Geoff Duke's Gilera 500cc four-cylinder racer, circa 1957. It would be as though the CZ team had been given enough backing & support to have beaten Agostini's MV Agusta and Hailwood's RC181, and subsequently in the public's imagination a Super-Sports machine was no longer an inline multi, but a V-four. And so instead of the CB750K0 Sandcast, Honda would've made it's INTERCEPTOR first - a "Honda CZ860" if you will. Just consider the importance of the tubular-steel double-cradle "Featherbed" type frame though. It would be far easier just to use the VF750F Interceptor itself - you wouldn't have to deal with the whole "weld-up HUB" adaptation for wire-spokes on the SHAFT-drive of the Sabre/Magna. But it wouldn't fit the (fake) Historical Time-Line! Besides, the V-angle of the Sabre is so much closer to that of the CZ Type 860 itself. Whereas the Interceptor, like the later "Super-Magna", is closer to the 1930's Super-Charged AJS V-four. Indeed, the Super-Magna itself would make a pretty good semi-modern re-interpretation of THAT old Brit-Bike V-four!

ANYWAY - Back to the GOLDWING! Ha-ha. Just sayin' though - that's why I suggest the tubular frame members. I'm picturing an adjustable "Helibar" type of thing, much in the style of the RAASK clubman bars from the old Laverda Jota, similar to the adjustable bars on the VF1100S Sabre for that matter. And foot controls which would pop on and off different mounting points complete with pedal pivot and master cylinder, for forward controls OR rear-sets, "mid position" - whatever ergonomics are desired. And with some fine tuning as well. As a basis, I'd harken back to the CB72/CB77 Hawk/SuperHawk with IT'S adjustable peg plates, with their "HIRTH" splines in three locations plus their rotation with a short armature for finer tuning. An updated version of this plus the Helibar style handlebars, and the ergonomics become a matter of not only style, but MOOD and occasion....


And now that there are flexible flat-screens available, I suggest going beyond the usual helmet sound systems, to a SKYPE connection slash passenger entertainment sytem, not only on a small rear-view slash fuel/ignition mapping slash GPS slash everything else cockpit display AND the small flat-screen which could be available on a raised rider back-rest or set into the arm-rest or flip-up airplane style table/tray within the passenger's seat, but also on the back of a signature series HELMET - wherein the rider and passenger not only speak but they could read and record each other's expressions, to know at a glance whether the other is looking at which scenery at such and such a time.


Such a system, if it doesn't already exist, could become affiliated with the Goldwing marque, But just think of how much more intimate the shared experience of riding would become. And all from a rider's helmet with flexible display and small cameras with a special lens built into the visors etc, built-in headphones and/or speakers - the basic system would simply have an earphone jack for whatever you wanna plug into it. I can't imagine a better way to link the rider and passenger more intimately, short of involving adult store wares..... And from an impact protection point of view, it's nothing more than a thin flexible flat-screen display stuck to the exterior of the helmet, with a wee bit of rubberized wet-weather protection trim all around it.


And that Wi-Fi box could all tie in with whatever GPS, engine programmability, On-Star service etc etc - all within a simple old's-cool retro style dash box analogous to the original CB-radio system that was outfitted to the GL1200 back in the day.


'Cause a whole central theme running through my vision of this new 'Wing concept, is modern yes, but also stripped-down "Old's-Cool" retro. With the candy paint, primary colours, and even the shrouded forks and "toaster tank" thing coming back.


Bah - I wish to heck I could photoshop all of this into view - If I had my druthers, and a decent fabrication shop, I'd hack up a GL1800 then hammer & wrench the thing into being....


-Sigh.
 

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Dammit - I just wrote out a HUGE long post but it was dumped when I had to log in upon posting it! ARGH. Well - here, for starters, a taste of how I feel about the Goldwing:

-Sigh.

BIG!! TIP for you.

Always, do a Control-A (highlight all) and then a Control-C (copy all)

before you try to post anything on any forum....
I have been bit by that bug-a-boo so many times...

if I am going to do a big write up, I do it in MS Word, then copy/paste from there.
 

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Why not just convert Comstars to spoke?
That way, more would be able to easily do it. Probably making it more appealing because of that.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Thanks for the tip, John. So it ain't just me! It truly chaps one's ass, dunnit? You're dead-on about using a WORD type program, and I usually remember to do this, or at least cut-&-paste. I guess I just got too comfortable. Anyway yeah, I just edited/updated my thoughts on the subject. IF you're interested.


Oh, and Captain - you're right, converted Comstars are a good idea. However, the typical bolt-up flange-plate method adds a whole lot of weight where the idea should be to reduce it instead. See, for my OWN wire-wheel swap here, on the "CB900K0 Bol Bomber", I've got some disassembled Comstar wheels which I've compared to the '75-'76 CB750F1 rear disc hub. And the weight is almost the same, though the Comstar is slightly the lighter of the two. Wish I had some accurate numbers in front of me right now. But yeah, I'm talking without the bolts, let alone the big flange plates which are typically made out of steel. And hey, IMHO this '75-'76 CB750F1 is ALREADY far far too heavy for what I wanna do with it.


I've got two of the 4.25x18" Akront rim, WHICH incidentally weighs the same as the OEM D.I.D. 2.50x18" hollow-shouldered rim on the five-point Comstar - the first one drilled for this same hub but the other is drilled for a Harley rear hub. So I'm gonna do the "front-hub-trick" with a GL1000 front hub and a bolt-up cush-drive. In either case, I intend to use either the 260mm rotor from the CB350F/CB400F with a CBR/VFR rear caliper refinished in a retro-fried style - OR possibly just spin down the CB750F1/GL1000 rear rotor to a 286mm & under-slung caliper from the VF1000R, or better still 276mm with the caliper & hanger from the CBR1000F Hurricane. Look at any GL1000/GL1100 rear rotor that's been run with the twin-pot caliper, and you can see how narrow of a band it actually grabs. Incidentally, the center "boss" hole and the bolt-circle holes from the GL1000 and GL1100 rotors only differ in being a six-bolt vs five-bolt type. Which is to say, you can always swap 'em back-&-forth with the one bolt holding it in place. Drill a few more holes in the carrier and it will fit. Though an even more elegant solution would be to drill out the nine rivets and swap carriers. That way, a slotted rear disc could fit the wire-spoke hub - Which only makes sense on a CB900F I suppose, where a person might wanna keep with the existing design motifs. There's also the one-piece rear rotor from the early DOHC CB750F1, dished like the front rotors, and coming in a slotted and non-slotted version. With a six-bolt pattern drilled into it, AND cross-drilled for cooling, "bite", & weight, that could represent a HUGE weight savings! It's too bad but the 260mm CB350F/CB400F front rotor will need IT'S entire center carrier cut out and substituted, as the bolt holes would have to run through the area where it's "dished" - unless of course, the new spacer were to align those new holes with another angled/"dished" surface? I prefer to picture it with replacement rivets, and a custom-made light-weight carrier. But hey - there's a major rotor manufacturer offers a replacement disc kit which consists of the outer steel ring only, and it comes with nuts & bolts. So if THEY get away with it, so could I. I just like the idea of the rivets for the OEM originality of it. Carriage bolts perhaps? With the domed heads? A truly authentic version would use one of the original SOHC CB350F/CB400F front calipers adapted to some type of floating-pin type carrier. Better still, the finned front caliper from the swinging carrier on the CB750K0 Sand-Cast....


ANYWAY - if you could just see the weld-up type hub that "6pkrunner" used. Lemme see if I can dig up the links to his Photobucket pics. It's a revelation for wire-spoke conversion on the GL1100 for starters, heck if you think of the outer drum surface with it's cooling fins, and how the early pre-'75 aftermarket PLUG type rear disc conversions on the CB750K0-'K5 etc, and how THAT version of the rear disc wheel was SOOOO much more beautiful than the weird YO-YO slash original '70s-'80s Battlestar Galactica Cylon MOTHERSHIP shaped rear hub cross-section ie side-on view, shared by both the CB750F1 and the GL1000 rear hub. Let's face it, they're just as BIG as the drum rear hub - and for no reasonable reason just a lame excuse that Honda seemingly only wanted to whip up the one size of spokes for the CB750 wheels, and/or the GL1000 17" with it's analogues in the form of CB750A Hondamatic '78 CB750K8 plus the 17" wheel & 190mm drum on the DOHC wire-spoke CB750Kzabc for that matter. Simplifies things a whole lot, though when you think about it, they could just as easily have used a spoke set from some smaller bike with a smaller lighter rear drum. Ah, but then those spokes would've been too thin of a gauge. Not interchangeable really. Whatever - the point being, it was a "Parts-Bin-Special" type of option, a cheap cop-out, the like of which ALL major and/or minor motorcycle manufacturers .... make.


But for OUR purposes, in all likelihood you're looking for some custom spokes anyhow. From Buchanan's. For one thing, in a heavier gauge, 'cause you wanna do it on a GL1500 just as much as a GL1000 or CB750 or even CB900F or CB900C. Then you've got the odd-ball RIM sizes and selection which you may or may not choose. No question about it, only a very select few folks are gonna use that standard OEM spoke set anyway. Ergo - wtf are you still doing with that enormous heavy-assed rear HUB???


In the case of the shaft-drive, yeah it actually would appear like the weld-up method would appreciate the full 190mm drum diameter. Though, there's a good argument for just drilling new bushing holes and milling the correct left-right offset, in whatever the heck wheel you LIKE, and no longer having to worry about the outer diameter of those rubber bushing holes.


With some type of alternative cush-drive or at least one with a smaller outer diameter, this here CB750F1 rear hub could be spooled down to just the diameter of the rotor bolt circle itself, somewhere around 140mm. Sure would be nice to be able to say the same thing about the GL1000 rear hub. Surely there's gotta be some way to off-set those little rubber bushings or shape 'em differently, or to use the pins to connect to some type of intermediary cush lugs/elements. But then again, just how complicated do you want this rear hub to BE ~???


Perhaps the key is the keep the same spoke flange diameter and spoke length, but try to ditch some hub weight in every other possible way....


But yeah - lemme try and dig up some pics of "6pkrunner"'s weld-up hub for the CB900C, aka GL1100 - it's a revelation for owners of these two models. But if you wrap your head around the fact it'll work for practically ANY other wheel hub you can think of, it's .... "revolutionary" - a re-invention of the wheel!


I picture it on a CBR, using a standardized flange diameter to once again do the "economy of scale" thing like Honda did with these big rear hubs, as Harley owners continue to enjoy today with THEIR common drilling patterns and ready-to-fit aftermarket rims etc.


(((I've got SEVERAL of those Harley-pattern drilled 40-hole rims, so it'll really pay off for me to figure out the best "front hub trick" type wheel, with a compact rotor from a front wheel, and a bolt-up cush-drive unit with the correct chain-line off-set for my DOHC-four. SEVERAL such rims, like I say - but the ones which would be the most interesting to Goldwing owners would be the 40-hole Super-Moto type in 4.25x17" and 5.00x17" - though I've also got the stuff drilled for the same pattern as GL1000 rear hubs, a 4.25x18" Akront, a 3.50x18" Super-Akront, a 3.50x16" Super-Akront, a 3.50x16" regular Akront, some Borrani 3.00x16" - all of which would lace straight up to a GL1000 rear wheel. Ah, but I wanna stick 'em through the wringer on the DOHC-four first. But THEN after the fact, I need to grab an old GL1000 and play around with THAT, using any odd-ball rims which don't stick to the DOHC-four project. Of course, there's also this Sabre.Magna-based "CZ860 Interceptor" project. Truth be told, I'd prefer to do the modified rear hub and do just THAT on a GL1100 or better still GL1200 - even better still GL1500 - rather than swapping a bigger motor, thicker fork, this that and the other, onto the GL1000.)))


(((If the idea catches on, the GL1000 won't be the go-to-model for wire-spoke wheels anymore. Instead, it'll be the one people build a light-weight "Mini-Goldwing" with. Maybe they'll even be spared some of the heavy hauling? At the very least, they'll go NEKKID!)))


Here's an even better example of a weld-up hub for you - I've seen pics, (then downloaded/pirated 'em - so should YOU just Google it) of a customized Jawa 600 single which utilized a single-sided-swingarm from Ducati or perhaps Honda VFR etc. IT'S wire-spoke hubs used a FRONT drum hub for the rear wheel conversion, with the obverse "bell" side of a mid-sized 2LS drum hub, itself "single-sided" by definition, welded onto the stub of whatever hub suited that swing-arm. Makes me wanna lay hands on a crash-damaged VFR rear wheel, and I don't even LIKE single-sided-swingarms, I have no desire to modify any of my bikes to take one, or any other type of monoshock conversion of a classic Superbike.


However, when I look at the VFR1200F - Ah, but Honda themselves have come up with some type of dual-sport "Adventure-Bike" based on the VFR1200F, haven't they? I should really look into it.


(((Ooooh - Jeebuz, I can dig it! I mean, as a donor for a Café Racer! Ha-ha. What sucks, is as a mega-sized dual-sport, it's got to ape the BMW style. Them hubs for damn sure - they could've been given a much more classic HONDA style to 'em. 'Cause then the door would be open for a "Retro-Bike" that'd be out of this world. Instead, even THAT would come off with characteristics of the Guzzi V7 or innumerable BMW airhead street-bikes. But, when it comes to the specialized market demographic that's targeted here, "you've gotta give 'em what they like" - Ridiculous, when you could TELL them what they like instead!!! Even so - there's enormous Café Racer potential in the VFR1200 Crosstourer, AND - if there's any hope at all of some parts cross-compatibility between this and the GL1500/GL1800??? Gotta be investigated further!!!)))


Thinking of what all could be done with that thing - there's a very lovely BMW air-head racer, from "Team Incomplete" which utilizes a wire-spoke rear disc-brake hub combined with a single-sided-swingarm, and it's really not all that FUGLY of a motorcycle. It doesn't look all that authentically 1970's, let alone the earlier decades when the boxer-twin motor was cutting edge. But it DOES show the potential for how a boxer engine (ie, GOLDWING) could look with a wire-spoke shaft-drive single-sided swinger. More than anything else, it's always made me think of the VFR1200F. Guess I should look into that new dual-sport version, see if IT'S got wire-spokes. Though of course I highly doubt it. Years ago, I passed over a stainless rim on eBay, which was off-set with the spoke holes along one side - kinda like some of these new "KINEO" wire-spoke rims. IIRC it was something like 6.00x17" - it went for cheap, I just couldn't figure out how to set up a good hub for it, though the first thing I thought of was a single-sided-swingarm. I guess what they're really intended for, is some type of Harley "fat wheel" application. Whatever - the point being, they're OUT there. They exist. Of course, an un-dimpled Excel/Sun rim from Buchanan's, could have IT'S holes drilled, or for that matter dimples added, at any point so long as it doesn't ride into the tire bead area. Well in all truth even that's no impediment. People have figured this stuff out, and a person CAN use off-the-shelf parts for some very weird wire-spoke wheels nowadays. You wouldn't need to have some type of custom-built rim designed and prototyped etc.


I sure don't understand the point of all of these "Alpino" and "KINEO" tube-less wire-spoke rims. 'Cause the dirt-bike kids have been sealing up THEIR rims with aquarium silicone or "shoe-goo" for years now! All you need is a rim that's got the bead-retention ridges. Sadly, a lot of my NOS vintage chop-shop type rims don't HAVE these ridges. SO my Freddie Spencer Replica front wheel with the Super-Akront 3.50x16" rim will have to use an inner-tube. I've got a couple of these rims, and some of 'em even use a side-valve hole, away from the spoke/dimple area. It would be awesome to figure out some way to plug up the enormous hole left for that off-set side valve, but without the bead retention ridges, the tire could pop off the rim IF - and only IF - it goes flat. At which point it could fail catastrophically - perhaps even if it's a radial tire. See, the radial belts supply some residual stiffness to a wheel when it goes flat. An old bias-ply tire will always be the riskier version of a BLOW-OUT - Maybe there's some way to ADD those bead retention ridges - with some other material, something harder than the aquarium silicone? Warrants further research - either way, those side-valve holes are enormous.


It sucks 'cause another rear rim I've got is a Super-Akront 3..50x18" - and this could make for the most light-weight rim set that I've got, with it's Borrani 2.50x18" front rim. Well - all of this can be avoided, 'cause MORAD is making decent period-correct style rims WITH the ridges. It's just that the "Super-Akront" is a much earlier profile/style, far more beautiful than the flatter REGULAR "Akront" rim, which Morad has carried on production with. Of course, I hear tell of 4.25" wide SHOULDERED rims, so Morad still has some exciting stuff to offer.....


Well - whatever. It really doesn't matter what all cross-compatible parts are out there on a VFR1200, or whether Honda's gonna offer a wire-spoke version of the new bike, 'cause if they don't - Heck, when I compare what wheels I'm building for my 985 with the wire-spokes on the new CB1100, I'd say even when they DO offer a factory version - the "Weld-Up HUB" method is a powerful tool, making it possible to give life to any such wire-spoke visions one can cook up!


HERE - Lemme dig up them pics!



Just look at how closely the two fit together! It's as though it were intended all along. Or at least, it points out how the 1st gen Comstar & subsequent Comstar hub design carried forward certain specs originally copied from their wire-spoked equivalents. I wonder whether the later Comstar hubs, from Boomerang rims, and especially the later version of which from CBX750F say, as opposed to CB1100F & CB1100R, CB900F2 etc - or more to the point with the slightly different versions of Boomerang Comstar hubs which ARE a shaft-drive type, such as CX500T, CX650T, & CX650E - whether they would have an inner diameter equivalent to some OTHER version of Honda rear drum hub, perhaps 180mm or 160mm instead of 190mm....
[/IMG]


http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/6pkrunner2/media/3_zpsi60plo31.jpg.html

http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/6pkrunner2/media/4_zpsr3mcqre2.jpg.html

http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/6pkrunner2/media/6_zpszden97gd.jpg.html

http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/6pkrunner2/media/2_zpsgjcbnx6a.jpg.html

http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/6pkrunner2/media/IMG_1303_zpsdf096c4f.jpg.html

http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/6pkrunner2/media/IMG_1302_zps91f030fe.jpg.html






-S.
 
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