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You might want to make sure that your float valve(s) are adjusted properly and working. If they deliver excessive fuel it can cause an excessively rich condition. It might only be one or two offending carbs. Check the air bleed orifices(they are the 4 little holes between the throttle and slide). If that is blocked or reduced in size by fuel lacquer that will mess with the idle circuit big time.

Typical in these designs the throttle plate straddles two orifices when closed, one is on the atmospheric side (air side between the slide & throttle plate 4 holes), the other is on the vacuum side, this is the one that the screw controls. This screw regulates the amount of vacuum that bypasses the throttle plate. More suction draws more fuel from the idle jet (richer and more volumn), less suction draws less fuel and more air since air is already a gas and less work to draw.
 

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Well i did find the throttle cables a little tight with no play in them at all. I belive the little holes that are spoke of are open. I could feel air comming through them when i was cleaning the carbs with compressed air. If i screw the pilot needles in one at a time i get a defanite miss on that cylander and they all do make a differance when adjustingso im pretty sure there all open. It will stay synced from front to back the problim is side to side.

Pat
 

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PatinIdaho wrote:
It will stay synced from front to back the problim is side to side.
Pat, pull the adjusting screw from the side to side linkage adjustment & make sure it's end is flat, then make sure there isn't a worn spot (or divot)at it's contact area.

Twisty
 

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Ok had the carbs off again tonight. Here is what i have found sense the original post.

The throttle cable was taught but not tight. Loosened it up a little.

1 float was at about 10 or 11mm another maybe 8 or 9mmreadjusted all to 7mm.

The little 0 rings that seal the pilot needles had 3 smashed flat 0 rings and probably leaked. Replaced all 4 with new ones.

The linkage for side to side did have a LITTLE play in it. Could not see it with the carbs on.Put some dental floss around the outside of the plastic bushing and wedged it in. There is no play now and nothing is binding. Hope it stays that way! Also took out the sync screws and put a little grease on them

Plugs on the 1 and 3 side look good. Plugs on 2 and 4 were sooty probably from the float.

The slow air cuttoff valve was wet from gas on the vacuum cap side. Probably from the high float also. I could see nothing wrong with either valve on the bottom of the intake and they hold vacuum with out bleeding off. So i assume they must be good.

Everything is back together and ready to fire it up and retune it tomorrow. Iwill get back with the good or bad then.

Pat
 

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Ok here is a update. The carbs seem to be working GRATE !!!!. I also had removed the little washers under the main needles and i now have no hesitation forgot to mention that in the previous post. BUT!!!!!!!!!!!

The engine now has a knock that was not there till a few days ago.Sounds like the #1 cylinder.It is pretty loud when cold accelerating. I don't hear it decelerating when cold. I don't hear it just cruising down the road either at 3k rpmcold or warm. I do not hear it when the engine is warm accelerating or decelerating but wind noise could be masking it. I do sometimes hear it when idling when warm but never idling cold. I cant hear it floating the engine at about 3k when warm. Have not tried it cold. Im thinking it's a collapsed piston:(. It sounds deeper inside then the camshaft area but sometimes noise travels.

Are there any other things to check that could make a knock like this?. I would imaging this would kill $500 bucks if i do the work and it will take a few months to collect the parts:(Maybe an ebay engine would be the way to go but with only 14k on the odometer i hate to condemn it just yet.

Pat
 

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PatinIdaho wrote:
Ok here is a update. The carbs seem to be working GRATE !!!!. I also had removed the little washers under the main needles and i now have no hesitation forgot to mention that in the previous post. BUT!!!!!!!!!!!

The engine now has a knock that was not there till a few days ago.Sounds like the #1 cylinder.It is pretty loud when cold accelerating. I don't hear it decelerating when cold. I don't hear it just cruising down the road either at 3k rpmcold or warm. I do not hear it when the engine is warm accelerating or decelerating but wind noise could be masking it. I do sometimes hear it when idling when warm but never idling cold. I cant hear it floating the engine at about 3k when warm. Have not tried it cold. Im thinking it's a collapsed piston:(. It sounds deeper inside then the camshaft area but sometimes noise travels.

Are there any other things to check that could make a knock like this?. I would imaging this would kill $500 bucks if i do the work and it will take a few months to collect the parts:(Maybe an ebay engine would be the way to go but with only 14k on the odometer i hate to condemn it just yet.
Pat, glad to hear it is running better!

On your knock? Maybe start with an oil change as you might have fuel diluted engine oil after all that carb work.

To help identify that knock you mighttry some straight 40 weight engine oil to see if that modulates the knocking sound, if so that probably means the possibility of bearing or piston problems.

Make sure you have the carbs synced correctly as just one cylinder firing weak can cause a knocking noise due to that internal drive chain.

Twisty
 

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Carbs are still in sync and seem to be working great. It has great pull even down to 1,500 rpmin 5th gear with no misses or hesitation. So i believe the carbs are working fine.

I changed the oil and the knock is still the same from what i can tell. It is to far forward to be the primary chain im pretty sure.It does not sound heavylike a main bearing and a little lighter then a rod bearing although i havenever heard a MCmain or rod bearing knock.The old oil does not appear to be gas diluted. I cut apart the oil filter and i do not see anything matalic in it or in the oil. Good sign i spose. I suppose i destroyed something inside continuing to ride it with the bad carbs. All thats left now is to tear it down to find out what as there should not be a knock but that aint gonna happen for a few months. Any other ideas?

Pat
 

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What about the possibility of a collapsed valve lifter? It isn't all that much of a job to pull the head and take a look. You could also check the piston pin and con rod while the head is off. To do that you just turn the engine by hand until the piston is moving down in the cylinder and then holding the crank still, press on the piston to see if it will move at all. It's best to do this with the crank near put not quite on BDC, that will put any slack in the pin or connecting rod bearing on the top of the pin or crank and give the most motion when pushing down on the piston. A tap with a mallet and a wood drift will help too, it will make a sound if there's a lot of clearance. I don't believe it's going to be the piston or lower end, more likely in the head.
 

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PatinIdaho wrote:
Carbs are still in sync and seem to be working great. It has great pull even down to 1,500 rpmin 5th gear with no misses or hesitation. So i believe the carbs are working fine.

I changed the oil and the knock is still the same from what i can tell. It is to far forward to be the primary chain im pretty sure.It does not sound heavylike a main bearing and a little lighter then a rod bearing although i havenever heard a MCmain or rod bearing knock.The old oil does not appear to be gas diluted. I cut apart the oil filter and i do not see anything matalic in it or in the oil. Good sign i spose. I suppose i destroyed something inside continuing to ride it with the bad carbs. All thats left now is to tear it down to find out what as there should not be a knock but that aint gonna happen for a few months. Any other ideas?
Pat, it might be worth pulling the timing belt covers & use a stethoscope to listen to the timing belt adjusters. Those can sound just like a rod knock under certain conditions.

The 1200 Wing has a pretty bullet proof engine as far as bearings & pistons are concernedbut I suppose anything is possible. They do seem to have their share of valve lifter noise as exavidmentioned but that is usually a lighter tapping noise not a heavier knocking noise.

Twisty
 

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Thanks you guys:clapper:Sorry for the long posts also but it takes some explaining. Im starting to think it is something else also. If it was a rod it would be getting worse by now i would think. Today it did not seem as bad but maybe i just let it warm up a few minutes longer. Probably have close to 500 miles on it sense i first noticed it. I have red lined it in first 3 gears 3 times and it has not changed. I dont think it is a lifter that would be more of a tick tick sound i think. This is a little heaver sound almost like a piston hitting the head lightly. I really listened to it on the way home today. Although it seems to be running fine it still is not. I can feel a very slight miss when accelerating under full throttle. Here is my plan for this afternoon.

Re check the sync AGAIN. Im sure its still fine though. Im going to drain the float bowls into a measuring cup and see if there all have the same amount of fuel. Im going to check the plugs and see how they look. Check the spark. Check the wires. I remember on one of my gl1000s one had eroded away on the inside. If i find nothing this far im going to take the timing covers off and make sure a belt has not slipped a tooth and check the adjusters. I will need to borrow a compression gauge to check that and will do that soon but not till this weekend. Im leaning to the carbs still not quit right. And being 100 percent improved over what they were kinda throwing me off track. Here is a question or two for ya.

Could1 carb being slightly out of balance or slightly rich make them knock like that? I have them adjusted so when it idles for say 30 seconds after revvingit up they are at a flat line.when i rev it up they all come up to within 2 pounds of vacuum of each other using mercury sticks

Can a bad carb be synced so it appears to be working good? I seem to have more noise out of the air box then it used to have when idling. Like it's sucking harder. Kinda like a car with way retarded timing sounds.

Again sorry for these long posts.

Pat
 

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Could1 carb being slightly out of balance or slightly rich make them knock like that? I have them adjusted so when it idles for say 30 seconds after revvingit up they are at a flat line.when i rev it up they all come up to within 2 (inches)of vacuum of each other using mercury sticks
Pat, sure one carb could be out of balance & cause your noise. You might want to check the balance whiile riding (you will need gauges for that, not balance sticks).

What you are checking at low throttle (basically idle) is the throttle plate opening as that controls manifold vacuum per cylinder. At higher speeds or accel the carb slides also come into play & those can really upset the individual balance under load or highwer RPM's.
Can a bad carb be synced so it appears to be working good? I seem to have more noise out of the air box then it used to have when idling. Like it's sucking harder. Kinda like a car with way retarded timing sounds
Sure, anything that effects manifold vacuum like a burnt valve, worn cam lobe (kind of common on the older Wings), vacuum leak(leaking intake "O" ring), worn piston rings, etc, can allow a carb to be mis-set to obtain a balanced idle. That would sure make that cylinder pull funny while under a load at speed.

One thing you might check is to pull all 4 carb drain plugsthen pressurize the fuel system, then check the fuel flow amount on all 4 carbs. There is a very fine filter screen in the top of the float needle seat of all the carbs & if that is plugged on one or more carbs it will really effect fuel flow to (& through) that carb under a high fuel usage condition.

Twisty
 

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Ok here is a pic of the plugs. Are they saying anything? They are in there respective places 1,2,3,4,

Pat
 

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Two and four look pretty normal to me, one and three seem a bit lean, it's hard to be sure without seeing them in person, but that's what it looks like to me.

Looks like a good bit of rust or corrosion on the bases of the plugs, what's with that?
 

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Yes i thought 2 with the white insulators are looking pretty normal. One #4 looks lean. What would make the insulators on #2,#4 have that reddish tint? That corrosion on the plug bases is just a little rust and i cant seeit affecting anything.

Ichecked the level of gas in each carb and they are all so close to the same that it is not the floats out of adjustment.Other then they might all be high or low.About 1/4 of a cup so maybe to low but i dunno how much should be in there.

The spark will jump about 1/2 inch and is a nice bright blue snap.

The little screens under the float needle seat is open and free.

Pat
 

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Ok got a little inventive and managed to wire tie the mercury sticks to my bike and ride to work. Yes all the mercury is still where it belongs!!

Here is what i found in the real world riding. When just cruzing down the road holding a steady speed number 1 and 3 cylinder are pulling an even 2 pounds more vacuum them cylinders 2 and 4 and will stay steady at 2 pounds more all the way to wide open throttle and a zero vacuum reading. When i release the throttle cylinders 1 and 3 gain vacuum as you would expect butcylinder number 2 jumps up about 10 pounds more vacuum then all the others all the way down to near idle. Number4jumps up to maybe 1 pound vacuum behind 1 and 3. At idle they are in sync. I did try turning down2 and 4 below1 and3 but that made no difference other then at idle.

SOOOOO im thinking when i put the new timing belts on i may have got the 2,4 cam timing off a tooth. Sounds like a good chance of it anyway....And from tuning it and messing with the carbs so much i may have hidden the real problem making it even harder to find. I did not get to the timing yesterday like i had planed but today thats job 1 and i HOPE im reasoning this out now instead of hunt and peck.

Pat
 

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PatinIdaho wrote:
Ok here is a pic of the plugs. Are they saying anything? They are in there respective places 1,2,3,4,
Pat, to me # 3 looks about normal & 1 & 2 look too rich with # 4 looking a bit lean. Unless you install new spark plugs, using the center porcelain probably isn't very accurate way of reading the combustion process as those porcelain's can be tarnished at any time (cold, choke, mis-fire) & will retain the tarnish for quite a while. I'm looking at the side electrode in the pictures as that is probably a better indication of (current) combustion on old used plugs.

To do it right, warm engine, install new plugs, then run at the throttle opening you want to check, then pull in clutch & hit the kill switch without moving the throttle position until engine quits.. Then pull plugs & read them.

Just as a controller-- On my 86 1200 all 4 of my plugs look like #3 after about 10,000 miles on new plugs & my bike runs great with no sags or hesitations (usually getting some where's around 38-44 miles per gallon).

Twisty
 

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PatinIdaho wrote:
Ok got a little inventive and managed to wire tie the mercury sticks to my bike and ride to work. Yes all the mercury is still where it belongs!!

Here is what i found in the real world riding. When just cruzing down the road holding a steady speed number 1 and 3 cylinder are pulling an even 2 pounds more vacuum them cylinders 2 and 4 and will stay steady at 2 pounds more all the way to wide open throttle and a zero vacuum reading. When i release the throttle cylinders 1 and 3 gain vacuum as you would expect butcylinder number 2 jumps up about 10 pounds more vacuum then all the others all the way down to near idle. Number4jumps up to maybe 1 pound vacuum behind 1 and 3. At idle they are in sync. I did try turning down2 and 4 below1 and3 but that made no difference other then at idle.

SOOOOO im thinking when i put the new timing belts on i may have got the 2,4 cam timing off a tooth. Sounds like a good chance of it anyway....And from tuning it and messing with the carbs so much i may have hidden the real problem making it even harder to find. I did not get to the timing yesterday like i had planed but today thats job 1 and i HOPE im reasoning this out now instead of hunt and peck.
Pat, vacuum isn't measured in pounds it's measured in either inches of mercury or inches of water. Most engine vacuum is measured in inches or mercury.

Your vacuum differences could be anything from plugged exhaust, to sticking or malfunctioning carb slides, to possible cam phasing, to emission control vacuum problems, to worn valve guides, to cam lobe wear (somewhat common on older Wings), to sticking carb operating linkage, to sticking carb enricheners, to ???..
I did try turning down2 and 4 below1 and3 but that made no difference other then at idle.
If your carb slides are sticking probably adjusting carb throttle plate position won't have much effect.

You might make sure both of your ign coils are getting full battery voltage (another common older Wing problem). While that won't effect idle vacuum it could explain the spark plug color differences.

With all the work you are putting into that Wing at least you will know whatmakes all the systems function.

Twisty
 

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I know it really could be anything still. The enricheners are closing fully. I had the intake manifolds off looking for a vacuum leak and whale off i checked the slides, They all are moving free and setting down the same in the carbs. The coils are both getting full voltage. I put a line direct from the battery to both coils with a relay and i even checked the voltage yesterday.I dont believe the throttle plates are sticking. I have had the carbs off 3 times now. I was very carefully the last time in checking them and i just dont think there is any more problem with them although now im second guessing ALL the work i have done. Im hoping its not a problem with woren cams and valves as you and paul have suggested. At the moment i think i have found the problem. If 1 cam is off 1 tooth it will make a difference or there would be a timing range and not a timing mark as i have read.. I have noticed i get more noise out of the airbox then i remember. Maybe a belt slipped a tooth from not being adjusted right or i did not have it right to start with.It sounds like a car with retardedcam timing. Anyway after i check the cams i will know its either that or i still need to look someplace else.

Also i was brain storming at work and bouncing a few ideas off the guys there. When i first started this bike a mouse nest blew out the exhaust on the 2 and 4 side. I would think with nearly 4 thousand miles on it(14,700 miles total)......it would be burned out of there by now but maybe not. The exhaust sounds and feels the same out of both sides.Will be something else to check after the cams

The only other thing i have not had apart is the egr? setup to look at the reed valves? Could a person plug the vacuum line going to it and ride it?

Pat
 

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PatinIdaho wrote:
At the moment i think i have found the problem. If 1 cam is off 1 tooth it will make a difference or there would be a timing range and not a timing mark as i have read.. I have noticed i get more noise out of the airbox then i remember. Maybe a belt slipped a tooth from not being adjusted right or i did not have it right to start with.It sounds like a car with retardedcam timing. Anyway after i check the cams i will know its either that or i still need to look someplace else.
Pat, depending on the cam profile a cam could be off a tooth & not be very noticeable or could be very noticeable if it placed an opening or closing event in a location that really effected carb settings. The thing is: IF, a mis-adjusted cam changes the idle vacuum for that side (& in most cases it will), then you make carb throttle plate adjustments tobalance out the vacuum betweenall 4 carbs you will have a couple of carbs that have different throttle openings at higher carb openings. You might try setting the carbs so both sides start to open the throttle plates as the throttle is opened (don't worry about evening the vacuum side to side) then just balance the carbs front to rear but don't worry about side to side balance. You would think that if your cams were off very much it would show ina compression reading side to side.
Also i was brain storming at work and bouncing a few ideas off the guys there. When i first started this bike a mouse nest blew out the exhaust on the 2 and 4 side. I would think with nearly 4 thousand miles on it(14,700 miles total)......it would be burned out of there by now but maybe not. The exhaust sounds and feels the same out of both sides.Will be something else to check after the cams
A plugged exhaust can play havoc with both vacuum readings & fuel metering. It will be hard to do but you could place a pressure gauge (fuel pressure gauge is a good one to use) on the rear pulse air hose on each side then drive the bike. You should see a pretty even exhaust pressure reading side to side if the exhaust isn't plugged. On a car, anything over 3# would be high but I really don't know on a bike.

Probably should re-check that cam timing though..

The only other thing i have not had apart is the egr? setup to look at the reed valves? Could a person plug the vacuum line going to it and ride it?
Should be able to..

Twisty
 

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Well the cams are in time "sigh".So now isuppose the next thing to check is the egr valve. Its the only thing i have not had apart to check other then the valve covers off and look at the cams although holding my finger over the plug holes they all feel like they have good compression.

Pat
 
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