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Ok egr seems to be working fine when running. So AAAAAAAGIN i took the carbs off for a 4th time. I found nothing plugged and everything looks to be working fine. I was real careful reassembling them and put them back on. Engine still acted the same. So i started thinking(dont say it;)) Maybe the pilot needles will affect the main needles. Sure enough they do for good or bad:baffled:. Number 4 cylinder pilot needle is out 1 1/2 turns the other 3 are out between 4 and 5 turns:baffled:. It is running better then ever but still not quit there. In the garage the sync stays fairly closethroughout the rpm range. Not like before when off idle it would go all over the place with one side pulling more vacuum then the other side. I though it was normal for it to get rough when you decelerate but after today it is also almost as smooth as when i accelerate. So i think they the carbs were so far out of adjustment there was no way anything was working right and i just need to tweak on them a little more. Also now that little knock is quiting down:clapper:. Maybe from running so rich carbon was building up and now that it is running leaner it is cleaning out. I dunno but tis a good sign.Now let me boar you to deatha little more;)

4 to 5 turns out of the pilot needles seems like a lot. I read someplace the fuel level in the float bowl will determine the richor lean condition of acarb. Could the float level of the carbs be set to high? They are at 7mm now as the book calls for but maybe i need to be at 8 or 9mm to bring thepilot needles back in where i think they should be. OHOH After thinking about it here a minute when you adjust the floats do you take the reading off the float it self or that little plastic joint that holds the float end cap on? I made a bar at work that just rests on the carb where the float bowl seals against and is 7mm above that. It looks like the picture in theclymer manual.Maybe i need to notch it out where that bump is and set it off the float bulb but again. I dunno for sure but it sounds like the carbs may need to come off a 5th time:gunhead:So if anyone is still reading this please chime in. ITS ALMOST FIXED:clapper::weightlifter:
 

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I took the carbs off for a 4th time. I found nothing plugged and everything looks to be working fine. I was real careful reassembling them and put them back on. Engine still acted the same. So i started thinking(dont say it) Maybe the pilot needles will affect the main needles. Sure enough they do for good or bad. Number 4 cylinder pilot needle is out 1 1/2 turns the other 3 are out between 4 and 5 turns. It is running better then ever but still not quit there. In the garage the sync stays fairly closethroughout the rpm range. Not like before when off idle it would go all over the place with one side pulling more vacuum then the other side. I though it was normal for it to get rough when you decelerate but after today it is also almost as smooth as when i accelerate. So i think they the carbs were so far out of adjustment there was no way anything was working right and i just need to tweak on them a little more. Also now that little knock is quiting down. Maybe from running so rich carbon was building up and now that it is running leaner it is cleaning out. I dunno but tis a good sign.Now let me boar you to deatha little more

4 to 5 turns out of the pilot needles seems like a lot. I read someplace the fuel level in the float bowl will determine the richor lean condition of acarb. Could the float level of the carbs be set to high? They are at 7mm now as the book calls for but maybe i need to be at 8 or 9mm to bring thepilot needles back in where i think they should be. OHOH After thinking about it here a minute when you adjust the floats do you take the reading off the float it self or that little plastic joint that holds the float end cap on? I made a bar at work that just rests on the carb where the float bowl seals against and is 7mm above that. It looks like the picture in theclymer manual.Maybe i need to notch it out where that bump is and set it off the float bulb but again. I dunno for sure but it sounds like the carbs may need to come off a 5th timeSo if anyone is still reading this please chime in. ITS


Pat, having to set those pilot needles that far out to get a decent idle & runability is probably telling you that you have a related problem (somewhere). Usually that means a vacuum leak or plugged pilot passage. The float level will effect the pilot settings somewhat but unless grossly wrong shouldn’t be that big a factor.



As far as setting the float level, just invert the carb(s) then tilt the carb so the float tang just (lightly) touches the needle (you don’t want to compress the needle), then measure from the bottom of the float to the gasket surface. The book doesn’t really say anything about the float seam but I always just use the outboard edges of the lowest part of the float plastic.



With that rich setting on the pilot needles effecting the decel & decel knocking you might want to re-visit the entire pilot jet air passage inside the carbs & especially in the external hoses from the carb(s) connector tubes through the slow air cut-off back up through the bottom of the plenum (it MUST be open for the pilot system to get emulsion air).



I believe you will find your fuel economy to be very low with those pilot needles set to 4 turns out. (do you have the pilot needle washers & “O” rings in the correct location on the needles?)



I sure wish I could help you more but all I can do from here is react to your input & responses here.



Is your bike a California emission model? If so make sure vapor recovery system isn’t fouling the carb mixtures at low rpm’s.



A plugged exhaust as well a malfunctioning secondary air system could be allowing spent exhaust gas to backing up into your intake manifold & fouling your fuel mixture also.

Keep us informed on your progress as this is getting interesting. (probably not for you but for some of us anyhow).



Twisty
 

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Well it's not a cali model. It was bought new in 1990 in alaska. Im the second owner.

On the pilot needles The spring is on first then the little washer then the O ring. It will not knock decelerating just accelerating. and that is now almost gone so im suspecting carbon was the problem or the sync as you had mentioned before.

I thought the pilot needles are out = leaner and in = richer but i will have to go back and re read your post about that.

IM thinking i have the floats adjusted to high making it run real rich.....And that is why i need to have the pilot needles out so far to lean it out.....But the choke when applied will spew out black smoke out the exhaust.

Its kinds trickyadjusting the floats the way the manual says. But i also think im pretty close with them so im torn there about them being set right. So when i have the carbs off again i will blow through everything again just to make quintuple sure.This is becoming my job and starting to be no fun at all wrenching on it EVERY day. But im going back in and today will be the day it runs right.

Pat

PS went back in the thread and dang the pilot needles are set way rich with in=lean and out=rich
 

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PatinIdaho wrote:
Well it's not a cali model. It was bought new in 1990 in alaska. Im the second owner.

On the pilot needles The spring is on first then the little washer then the O ring. It will not knock decelerating just accelerating. and that is now almost gone so I'm suspecting carbon was the problem or the sync as you had mentioned before.

I thought the pilot needles are out = leaner and in = richer but i will have to go back and re read your post about that.

I'M thinking i have the floats adjusted to high making it run real rich.....And that is why i need to have the pilot needles out so far to lean it out.....But the choke when applied will spew out black smoke out the exhaust.

Its kinds trickyadjusting the floats the way the manual says. But i also think I'm pretty close with them so I'm torn there about them being set right. So when i have the carbs off again i will blow through everything again just to make quintuple sure.This is becoming my job and starting to be no fun at all wrenching on it EVERY day. But I'm going back in and today will be the day it runs right.
Pat, you ask..
I thought the pilot needles are out = leaner and in = richer but i will have to go back and re read your post about that.

Actually on the 1200 OUT is rich &IN is leaner on the pilot needles. AT 4 turns out you are setting them plenty rich. On my personal 1200 3-1/2 turns out will drop my fuel mileage significantly.



I'M thinking i have the floats adjusted to high making it run real rich.....And that is why i need to have the pilot needles out so far to lean it out.....But the choke when applied will spew out black smoke out the exhaust.

High floats= a little richer through the entire range,, pilot needles out too far = richer at lower throttle settings & not very much effect at 1/2 or more throttle opening. High floats + rich pilot needles + enrichener= very rich & lots of black smoke.

Its kinds trickyadjusting the floats the way the manual says. But i also think I'm pretty close with them so I'm torn there about them being set right. So when i have the carbs off again i will blow through everything again just to make quintuple sure.This is becoming my job and starting to be no fun at all wrenching on it EVERY day

While I haven't ever used this method on a Wing I have used it on many other carbs- Remove the float bowl drain plugs,, then install a small pipe fitting in each bowl drain opening,, then attach a clear plastic tube or hose to each pipe fitting & wire so the top is well above the carb body (leave the top open).. Then allow the float bowls to re-fill with fuel.. The fuel level in the float bowl will then fill the clear hose to that exact level as in in the float bowl. The fuel level in the float bowl is NOTthe same as the float setting height but you could at least see the fuel level & see if they are all even in height. I doubt you could run the engine at anything but a low idle as any high RPM's will tend to suck air in through those plastic hoses.

Twisty
 

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Here is something i dont understand. When i screw the pilot needles in the exhaust gets very rich burns your eyes and will dang near gas you to death. With them out the exhaust seems to be allot better. ItACTS like out = leaner and in = richer. I re read the manual and it states" IF the float level is to high, the result will be a rich fuel air mixture. If it is to low the mixture will be to lean."

So it acts like the floats are tohigh pointing to arich fuel mixture as i need to turn the pilot needles out so far the lean it out.

But going by the info here it is acting like a lean mixture as i have to screw the pilot needles out so far to richen it up.

Is it possible that the pilot needle acts different on the 86I model and out does make it leaner? I know on the V8's i have worked on out is lean and in is rich but this is a MC. not a car.
 

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PatinIdaho wrote:
Here is something i dont understand. When i screw the pilot needles in the exhaust gets very rich burns your eyes and will dang near gas you to death. With them out the exhaust seems to be allot better. ItACTS like out = leaner and in = richer. I re read the manual and it states" IF the float level is to high, the result will be a rich fuel air mixture. If it is to low the mixture will be to lean."

So it acts like the floats are tohigh pointing to arich fuel mixture as i need to turn the pilot needles out so far the lean it out.

But going by the info here it is acting like a lean mixture as i have to screw the pilot needles out so far to richen it up.
Probably that eye watering smell you get is a lean condition (partially burnt fule). I think the 1200's secondary air system makes that problem worse. My personal 1200 will burn your eyes at warm idle with the pilot needles turned in too far. If the mixture is too lean it won't fully combust so will then fire off in the mufflers when secondary air is added.

Just look in your owners manual. Look at the high altitude recommended settings. It will give you a setting for the pilot needles to be in farther. Engines go rich as you go higher in altitude (less atmospheric pressure) so I doubt Honda would have you set the carbs richer for highaltitude.
Is it possible that the pilot needle acts different on the 86I model and out does make it leaner? I know on the V8's i have worked on out is lean and in is rich but this is a MC. not a car.
I doubt it as my 1200 gets richer as you open (screw out) the pilot needles. Not ALL Kehin carbs are the same on pilot setting direction. It all depends on what side of the throttle plate the pilot screw is on. On some Kehin carbs (mostly dirt bikes & such) with the pilot screw on the other side of the throttle plate (or slide) the pilot needle is an air screw & on those out is lean.

Twisty
 

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Pat, Very interesting post. I really hope you the best.,And Twisty has great knowledge. Don't forget to walk away sometimes and get some sleep. Many a night have been spent in the garage obsessing over a problem only to figure it out with a clear head in the morning. I once as a youngin spent an all nighter trying to get a tranny out of a camaro only to discover the speedo cable was still connected when the sun came up! Keep the faith.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
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Well i THINK i have it down to just needing adjustment. Had the carbs off a 5th time and still found nothing wrong.At the moment the pilot needles are out between 1 1/2 turns to 2 1/2 turns and it seems to be running great in the garage but i need to take it for a spin. BE back later with the news.

Pat
 

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Well had it out for a spin. Have not took it through any twistys till today just to work and back. DidLOTS of accelerating and decelerating high speed and low speed. The bike IS running better then ever but still a little off. I dont think I will be able to get it any better as i cant do a proper idle drop on it only a close one. I THINK it is still a little rich or leanon one or two cylinders but im unsure what ones. So best to leave it alone.

One thing i found surprising though is how light the rear end gets when coming into a turn from high speed just before you start scraping.YEOW!

Pat
 

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Ride it a few hundred miles if it seems close to right, maybe things will settle in, and you will lose the hyper sensitivity one seems to accrue when doing a lot of adjusting.
 

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PatinIdaho wrote:
Well had it out for a spin. Have not took it through any twistys till today just to work and back. DidLOTS of accelerating and decelerating high speed and low speed. The bike IS running better then ever but still a little off. I dont think I will be able to get it any better as i cant do a proper idle drop on it only a close one. I THINK it is still a little rich or leanon one or two cylinders but im unsure what ones. So best to leave it alone.

One thing i found surprising though is how light the rear end gets when coming into a turn from high speed just before you start scraping.YEOW!
Pat, you really should be able to get that 1200 to run like a clock at all RPM ranges (at least with some work I got mine to run that good).

You might try those small washers under the needles again. That's what it took to make mine run great. What thosewashers do is allow it to richen slightly just as the slides start to open, that allows the pilot needles to be leaned out for proper low speed running but remove the stumble as the slides begin to open. ( I now have my pilot needles set at either 2-1/2 or 2-3/4 out from seated, can't remember which one as I jockied with them so many times getting them just right).

On that rear being light on dropped throttle braking at turn in!! Yes, that was a problem for me on hard braking turn in's. I added more front air pressure, shimmed the front fork springs (it really needs higher rate front springs). Once I got the front to stop dropping to the jounce bumpers on hard braking it now will stop from over 100 mph & allow a quick lay over at over 80 mph without any rear break-away.

OH! one more thing.. If you start riding that bike hard into the twisty's & turns you will trash (cup)the side treads on the front tire rather quickly (don't ask me how I know that)..

Twisty
 

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Again THANKS for the help and ideas you guys.

It's not exactly a stumble when accelerating. The exhaust on the2,4 side is still a LITTLE rich and messing with the pilot needle of the number 4 carb almost cleared it up. So i need to play with the pilot needle on the #2 carb also but to do that i have to take all the plastic back off for like the thousand time and boy am i tired of that!!!! The only tach i could get my hands on in Podunk north Idaho is a POS from shucksand no use at all really. So i have to do things by ear,smell and feel. I'll get it better but it will take some shade tree tweaking and seat of the pants feel. I do notice without the little washers in there the top end does not pull quit as good as it did with them in there. So im going to hunt around for some a little thinner then the ones i have(24 or 25 thou) gonna look for some 15 to 20thou thick.As i would think they do affect fuel mileage somewhat.

The exhaust on the 1,3 side actually smells pretty good. Theenrichener works ALMOST as good as it was before all this started. It is idling allot smoother then when i first got it. Maybe i should get out the gwrra gold book and see if there is a closet guru with toolshiding in there near me(Just thought of it. Figures:gunhead:)

I need to get it just a little better then leave it alone for a while and see what happens. Seems to be the main problem now is i can have it purring in the garage then after a 20 mile ride things have settled in and changed a little

I dont normally ride that hard anymore. But i had to see what this thing was gonna do and well now im gonna have to ride that hard sometimes again:goofygrin:

Pat
 

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PatinIdaho wrote:
I dont normally ride that hard anymore. But i had to see what this thing was gonna do and well now im gonna have to ride that hard sometimes again:goofygrin:
Pat, I don't know!! I'm getting right up there in age (retired once then went back to work)& keep telling myself that I'm going to take it easy-- but then I flop it over in a sharp left-hander at speed & all those good feelings come back. Once you have ridden hard for a while that is a very hard habit to break. One good thing about those old Wings, it seems that once you ground them outa real GOOD hit or two they seem to grind away most that drags & will lean right to the edge of the tire tread as long as the rear air shocks are pumped up real good.

Twisty
 

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Well i JUST HAD TO MESS WITH IT AGAIN:grinner:I could get the sync kinda close side to side when off idle but never right. Like the throttle linkage geometry was off a little. So I looked at it and seen that the number 1,3 side where the linkage attaches to the carb sync adjuster looked a little bent! Started doing some "creative carb linkage tweaking" And well lets just say WOW what a difference:shock:I can now sync the carbs at idle and off idle. When returning to idle they all return to the same level within about 3 seconds. When riding they are almost all the exact same level. Ithad kind of a chug chug when accelerating. One side was about 4 inches of vacuum less then the other side and i could not tune it out. It is very close now:grinner:That knock is gone now also now that all cylinders are pulling the same and not 2 just along for the ride. I still have a small issue with the pilot needles but now i think i can get it better.

Pat
 

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PatinIdaho wrote:
Well i JUST HAD TO MESS WITH IT AGAIN:grinner:I could get the sync kinda close side to side when off idle but never right. Like the throttle linkage geometry was off a little. So I looked at it and seen that the number 1,3 side where the linkage attaches to the carb sync adjuster looked a little bent! Started doing some "creative carb linkage tweaking" And well lets just say WOW what a difference:shock:I can now sync the carbs at idle and off idle. When returning to idle they all return to the same level within about 3 seconds. When riding they are almost all the exact same level. Ithad kind of a chug chug when accelerating. One side was about 4 inches of vacuum less then the other side and i could not tune it out. It is very close now:grinner:That knock is gone now also now that all cylinders are pulling the same and not 2 just along for the ride. I still have a small issue with the pilot needles but now i think i can get it better.
Pat, it sounds like you are getting real close to where you need to be..

Can you explain in a little more detail what you did & found on that bent linkage,, you really have my interest here.

Twisty
 

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Well. one of the times i had the carbs off i was flipping them over and they slipped out of my hands. I did not think a few inches high would carry enough inertia to heart anything so i gave them a quick glance and never thought about it again. Well i could not get them to sync from side to side. At idle they would be perfect but revving it up 2,4 were always about4 inches of vacuum less then 1,3 when ridding. In the garage i could get it real close. But riding it ... you give it more throttle making the problem appear again....So the only thing i could think of knowing everything else was fine was the linkage. So i started looking again at it and i could see nothing loose...all was tight as it should be. Started thinking a little more. If there syncing fine at idle and going off sync when they are opened up linkage HAS to be the problem, And sure enough the little pin the linkage attaches to WAS bent in and up a little. I held a straight edge up to it. I figuredit should be pointing straight back and it was not. So the way it was bent it was making the butterflies on1,3 open ever so slightly more then2,4 no matter how good i had then synced at home. It is still not perfect they are off by about1 inch vacuum when running down the road. Tomorrow they will be perfect!!.. To much detail?

Also.Took a little trip close to 300 miles today to Nelson BC. Bike is running great. I have not figured out the mpg yet but at 149miles it still reads a little over 1/3 tank 2up ridding. Thats mileage fromNelson BC to my garage!

Pat
 
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