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Continuing starting problems

3392 Views 25 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  Graham B, 
Graham B
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Thestory so farin this sorry tale.

The problem is that when hot, the starter motor won't turn the engine. It tries but just hasn't got the umph! So (and some of this was for other reasons) I've;
  • Bought a new battery.
  • Serviced the existing starter motor.
  • Changed the starter clutch.
  • Changed the lead from the solenoid to the starter.
  • Checked the earth lead and cleaned up the contacts.
  • Bought a GL1000 starter motor and serviced it.
  • Tried a spare solenoid.
  • Started to drink heavily.
The motor cranks the engine like there's no tomorrow when the engines cold.

So, before I turn into a drunk, where to now?
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PatinIdaho
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Timing to advanced?

Pat
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Graham B
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PatinIdaho wrote:
Timing to advanced?

Pat
Click to expand...
It's an idea but as I understand it, the timing is fixed and can't be adjusted.

Tickover is fine as is the pickup when I open the throttle. There's no odd noises when I snap the throttle shut either.

Spark plugs look a good colour.
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R
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I know that some big engine cars used to have this problem because when the engine was warm/hot there was actually more compression. Looks like you tried all the usually places... battery, connections, wiring, and starter. If it is any solice, my John deere riding mower does the same thing, but will turn over with the throttle wide open.

will be interesting to hear what others think
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englishted
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There are a ton of posts about this problem. To put it briefly, the bearings in the starter ends wear out and when the motor is hot and the armature coils swell, the play in the bearings allows the armature to short out on the motor casing. When it cools down the bike starts fine. Also the soldered brush cables can burn from bad contact and need to be soldered again.
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twisty
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Graham B wrote:
Thestory so farin this sorry tale.

The problem is that when hot, the starter motor won't turn the engine. It tries but just hasn't got the umph! So (and some of this was for other reasons) I've;
  • Bought a new battery.
  • Serviced the existing starter motor.
  • Changed the starter clutch.
  • Changed the lead from the solenoid to the starter.
  • Checked the earth lead and cleaned up the contacts.
  • Bought a GL1000 starter motor and serviced it.
  • Tried a spare solenoid.
  • Started to drink heavily.
The motor cranks the engine like there's no tomorrow when the engines cold.

So, before I turn into a drunk, where to now?
Click to expand...
Graham B, that seems to be a fairly common problem on the 1000-1100 Wings.

Here is a copy of an article I pilfered from another site..

Twisty

________________________________________________

The following article submitted by Ken Chapin on February 25, 1999
Subject: Sluggish Starter
Recently, a tip came to me from Larry Shoebridge of Ontario, Canada. By redirecting the ground circuit from the commutator brush within the starter to the aluminum housing cap of the starter, a more substantial connection is made. Close examination of the stock OEM starter will reveal that the current flows through the brush and wire then down through a mounting plate that is secured with two (2) rivets to the brush plate. This plate simply sits in a collar groove when the starter is reassembled creating the completion of the current circuit to ground. Dissimilar metals are used here and we all know that corrosion lives in
between dissimilar metals and good contact can suffer. The modification involves drilling a hole in the end cap and securing a separate length of spiral stranded copper wire with a nut & bolt to a solid connection of the brush mounting plate (either spot weld, rivet or nut & bolt). A spot weld is recommended. With this modification, you will notice an improvement in the cranking performance of your starter. Interested parties can E-mail Ken -- [email protected] or Larry -- [email protected]
Either one of us will provide detailed instructions on the modification. Scanned photos are also available. To download complete starter overhaul instructions from this website please click on either of the two selections below. These instructions are printable - they are plain text files and should print on three pages. Use the file print command in your browser to print them after they download.

Starter O/H Instructions - GL1000/1100
Starter O/H Instructions - GL1200
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exavid
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Graham B wrote:
Thestory so farin this sorry tale.

The problem is that when hot, the starter motor won't turn the engine. It tries but just hasn't got the umph! So (and some of this was for other reasons) I've;
Click to expand...
Graham, try to crank the hot engine with the kill switch off. If this doesn't make a difference it's most likely the problem lies with the starter, as per Twisty's info. If it does then there's the possibility of some kind of pre-ignition with the engine firing too soon or being too advanced when hot for some reason.

I had a Chevy back in the days when the starter button was separate from the ignition switch and could start it by cranking up and turning the ignition on after the engine was cranking. Turned out to be a bit of crud on the rubbing block in the distributor.
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AZWinger
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Graham B,

Have you checked the starter push button connection? Sounds like you have covered everything else, unless twisty's mod will fix it. I supposeyou could have gotten two bad starters in a row.

Mine was acting just like yours, until I cleaned it and put new brushes in. Been working great ever since.

Bob :11grey:
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wingdawg101
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Had a chevy did that for years becuase the starter was too close to the exhaust and would get hot making the bearings swell, so I had to pour cool water over the starter every wear I went to get it started again !:baffled:
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Graham B
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PatinIdaho and exavid, you might be on to something :clapper:

This morning I cranked her up from cold - no problem. Warmed her up until the fan cut in. Let the fan do it's stuff and then switched off.

Switched back on again, pushed the button and "clunk". Turned off the kill switch, pushed the button and she spun. Turn the kill switch on again while the starter is still spinning and she fires up fine. :baffled:

Tried it a number of times and different ways. Now sometimes the motor turns without killing the ignition. Could be the new brushes bedding in but I don't understand how it could be ignition. I did change the timing belts a while ago but was very careful to make sure everything lined up properly and I've done this a few times over the years. Spark plugs are standard.

So, if it is ignition, where to now? :baffled:

Twisty, thanks for the link.
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exavid
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Graham,

I see two possibilities, one would be a pretty carboned up combustion chamber, or early ignition timing when hot. A long shot could bea heat range on the plugs that's too high. How long does it have to sit before it will start up normally? If it's hot plugs or carbon holding heat, a rather short time should allow cooling to the point it would start normally, 15 minutes or so.If the bike had a mechanical advance it's most likely it was sticking in the advanced position when hot. I don't know the ignition setup on the 1100, I assume it's similar to the 1200 in which case the problem is likely to be electronic, pulse generator coils, or one of the sensors.Unfortunately the only 1200 I've worked on was an SEI and it has fuel injection and a whole different system.

There's plenty of guys here that know the 1100 ignition system, let's hear from some of you about how the 1100 ignition advance system works.
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Graham B
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Exavid,

Combustion chambers are fine. I know that because I've recently had the heads off to change the head gaskets that weren't blown (Water pump gone instead).

Spark plugs are NGK DR8ES-L. Took them out after a run and they looked perfect.

I have to admit I've not timed how long before things work again but I'd guess around half an hour.

Need to check the advance/retard unit but not too keen on taking the engine out (again) to do it :pumpkin:
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exavid
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Graham B wrote:
Exavid,

I have to admit I've not timed how long before things work again but I'd guess around half an hour.

Need to check the advance/retard unit but not too keen on taking the engine out (again) to do it :pumpkin:
Click to expand...
The fact that the kill switch helps it start could also mean that the starter is getting more voltage with the ignition out of play. The more I think about it, I'm beginning to suspect the starter or the starter relay. It doesn't take more than a small increase in resistance to drop the voltage to the starter. Why only when the engine is hot? Possibly have a little more compression then. Twisty's recommendation on starter modification could well be the ticket. When you said you replaced the starter, do you have the old one you could put back in?

Just as an experiment you might try running on higher octane gas and see it it helps at all before you tear things down. Also try riding it for awhile using the kill switch start and see if it clears up any by itself. It's just possible the starter brushes do need to settle in a bit. If they had flat ends it will take a bit of time for them to shape to the commutator for maximum current flow
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Graham B
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What bothers me is that this is the second starter motor to exhibit the exact same problems. The latest starter motor is a GL1000 one which, I'm told, has a bit more power - it's certainly bigger! I have to remove the exhaust and he nearest stud to get it in (Of course, the nearest stud had to be the one that didn't want to come out). I've also tried another (known good) solenoid to no avail.

Just checked the vacuum advance unit by simply taking the vacuum pipe off the carb and sucking. There is a reassuring "plop" from the unit as I suck and let go. No idea of a simple way to check the manual advance. Guess I'll have to borrow a strobe and see if it all works as it should.

It might just be the brushes need bedding in and I'm paranoid :gunhead:
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exavid
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Graham, take along a jumper cable and jump the starter directly from the battery when it's hot. That should prove out the starter relay and the intermediate wiring.
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GWEddie
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Is there a possiblity that the engine might be starting to seize up? You seem to have the starter and solenoid ruled out and I'm wondering if the engine is getting tight when warmed up.
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twisty
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Graham, it looks like you are going to have to do some more testing.

You might try spraying the hot starter with Co2 fire extinguisher (or cold water) during the hot soak period. If cooling the starter helps then you know where your problem is. If cooling the starter doesn't help, then try some jumper cables or a battery charger (caution don't jump from a full sized car or truck battery as that could damage (or blow up) you bike battery if it is sulfated or low on charge).

You should also check all the starter connections like ground cable (both ends) & positive cable (both ends) as hot cables or hot connections increase the resistance in those areas.

You might also try pulling ALL the fuses except the ones required for ignition & cranking to see if that helps.

Twisty
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R
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I think twisty may be on the right course, check and recheck all connections. A connection may look perfectly good, but have just enough corrosion to cause it wo be weak which will alsways be worse when warm.
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Graham B
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I've been chatting with a local friend. It's looking more and more like the manual advance being stuck in the advanced position.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I'll give them a try as they will help prove/disprove the manual advance theory and I'd like to be 99.99% certain before I start pulling things apart (again). :clapper:
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wingmedic
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Just purchased a 1985 gl1200 and I am having the same starting problem. I am wondering if it was ever resolved.

The person I purchased it from just put a new starter on it and it goes great except when hot. I can wait about 45 min to an hour and it starts right up. Now i did make the mistake of jumping it off with a regular car (I was stranded in a parking lot) but have seen on ill effects from this so far. now in the parking lot the motor would bearly turn over maybe twice then totaly dead when jumper cables applied it started right up. could this be a charging issue where the battery is charging but not completely just enogh to get by and when a load is put on it like starting a warm engine it is just enough to keep it from working?

I hope someone has an answer because I love my new (to me) wing and would hate to be stranded again.
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