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Is Darksiding Safe?

  • Yes! Motorcycle and Tire manufacturers - What do they know? I'm smarter than all of them. It's worth

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  • No! I'm not willing to risk my life and the lives of others for a chance to save money on tires. Yo

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Darksiders: I apologize in advance if you find this posting offensive. Safety is a stickler issue with me. If there is one scientific study by a car tire manufacturer stating that his car tire is approved for use on a motorcycle please post it!

Unfortunately, people do put car tires on motorcycles. And because they didn't have an accident today they think hey, it's safe! But the only evidence they have to support their view is anecdotal in nature. (Websters 2nd definition defines anecdotal as: "based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers - anecdotal evidence") I've read where 'darksiders' say it's a "personal choice" and "we're not suggesting that it's right for you...bla bla" Riding the darkside is like playing russian roulette the only difference is, if a darksider goes down in a group, he is going to take his passenger and possibly others with him! This is an example of where a 'darkside' choice effects others - directly.

I submitted the question to Stu Oltman, the well known and respected technical editor of GWRRA's Wingworld magazine and in his response he states that he is opposed to using car tires for safety reasons, plus there is the liability issue of financial responsibility if there is a failure in a tire carcass when it was used in a manner not contemplated by the manufacturer.

It is useful for one to take the trouble to understand why a motorcycle tire has a rounded tread area and a car tire has a flat one. It's because of the tread contact zone. A car tire has maximum contact when it is placed at 90 degrees to the road surface(straight up and down to the road). Where do you think the motorcycle tire's maximum contact zone is? It's on it's rounded tread area's side. A motorcycle's tire grabs better in a lean angle than upright. Also, many tire manufacturers use a stickier rubber compound on the sides of the tread to further improve traction. The more you lean, the more contact area you get, and the more traction. This is completely the opposite of a car tire.

Here is a video on Youtube that shows a car tire on the back of a goldwing. Check out the decreased contact area when the tire is in a lean angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaIj1XrmvLM&feature=related


Here is an example of how the contact area on a motorcycle rear tire looks:




So running a car tire on a motorcycle comes down to this.

Honda says its not safe to do it. (see below)

and

It hasn't been tested or approved by the tire manufacturers or the Motorcycle manufacturers.

and

Professionals in the field say it's not safe to do it.

From the Honda Owners Manual 1800.






From the Honda 1500 Shop manual:




Why would one be willing to risk their life, to go against all the warnings, just because it hasn't killed/hurt him or others today? Is saving money on tires that important? Isn't riding a bike dangerous enough? In my judgment, using untested and non-approved tires is either incredibly arrogant or just plain stupid and puts all of us at greater risk. I sincerely hope that laws are passed outlawing the practice .


It's all about safety.


Daveo
 

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Is there anything other thananecdotal evidence against running a car tire on a Goldwing???:baffled:Is there one clear case of a car tire on a bike causing an accident?

I am neither for or against it. I won't do it because I can't, on my bike. Perhaps Kit will be the one to give the whole issue some credence.
 

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interesting point of view on your part. I for one have limited mechanical knowledge so a big no on car tires for me. I am not affraid to work on my bike but couldn't even think about doing something not tried and true.

Ride Safe, Ray

:waving:
 

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Daveo,

The above assumes that a car tire has been mounted on conventional m/c rims. In that respect, I totally agree.

The gl1800 rim is designed for radial tires and the bead matches if the tire is properly selected as Kit Carson reported in his post.

The m/c manufacturers will absolutely deny responsibility for anything they did not supply in a heart beat. That is a known fact.

I for one am going to wait for a reasoned report from a person who takes the time to approach the subject in a reasoned and logical manner. ie, Kit Carson's report after he has completed his tests.

I also meant to add that your Poll is intentially divisive and totally misleading.
 

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Let's also not fail to mention the current state of tire technology.

Motorcycle tire technology - hasn't really been updated much in the last 15 years.

Car tire technology - Pretty much like a computer, constant updates to the technology.

The tire shown in the Youtube video is a few years old (see above), and also appears to be overinflated.

Warning labels - Put in place by most manufacturers to cover their own assets in the event that somebody does something and then attempts to sue them for it. Most warning labels should just read "Warning...put it down, you're just going to hurt yourself with it".
 

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Well no more comments from me, it was not my intent to start a war or argue about the whole deal. You all can ask me about it this fall, I am running the Run Flat to Montrose, going to go see the Grand Canyon, but that is a few months away, so 1500 miles a month by 11 months till blast off, is what 17000 miles plus 3000 miles there and around and about and two thousand home, will put about what 22,000 on the tire. ? Be a good test. Anyone got a hang glider that will fit in the trunk? Sounds like fun off the canyon wall to me. :D:cheeky1::cheeky1::cheeky1:Kit
YouTube - Bike tyre from under Goldwing YouTube
YouTube - Darkside figure 8's in a parking lot
 

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This is just my humble opinion... At one time we KNEW the sun and stars revolved around the earth...then we KNEW the world was flat... How many great thinkers ignored the Warning Labels and advanced thinking and ultimately technology. I believe somebody posted a video about what we know and part of that was "What every freshman in college today is learning in computers and technology will be obsolete by the time they become juniors' .
If we all follow the instructions on the "Warning Label", within reason, where will we be tomorrow? I believe Kit as well as the other Guru's have lived and learned as much as they have by being cautious and pushing the limits within safe and reasonable boundaries. I believe that is where most new ideas and advancements in technology come from.
I don't wish to ruffle feathers but I believe these folks trying new ideas will ultimately push technology forward.
 

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Daveo wrote:
Why would one be willing to risk their life, to go against all the warnings, just because it hasn't killed/hurt him or others today? Is saving money on tires that important? Isn't riding a bike dangerous enough? In my judgment, using untested and non-approved tires is either incredibly arrogant or just plain stupid and puts all of us at greater risk. I sincerely hope that laws are passed outlawing the practice .


It's all about safety.


Daveo
I didn't have much of a problem with your post till I got to this. Frankly, if I listened to the people with this kind of attitude I wouldn't ride a bike in the first place and we certainly dont need any more laws telling us what we can or can't do in our private lives. It pains me to think a fellow rider thinks this way.
 

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Love the idea of 'Darksiding' [new verb] but I'm afraid the head rules the heart in this case - Mr Honda has more £££'s to invest in safety testing than me. If he said 'use a MC tyre but a CT is OK if ya want' then I would.

Seems relevant to me that a lot of Darksiders say something like 'needs a little more countersteer' or something similar. This tells me that handling IS affected. Besides which, there's no way a UK insurance Co would cover a non-recommended, no! a specifically excluded, tyre - it would count as a modified bike and attract either higher premium or no cover. Period.

A 'No Brainer' in my book.....
 

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Initially I tried it for cost reasons, it was costing me about $100 a month to keep tires on this thing. After a couple thousand miles it's not the issue any more. I would stay with the car tire if the cost was equal. The arguments against it are just bunk. There is more contact on the road at all times. The rubber compound is stickier. The tire carcass is tougher. It fits the rim perfectly(GL1800), snaps over the safety ridge on the rim just like mounting on a car rim, it's not going to come off unless completely deflated and ran like that for some distance and not even then if it's the run flat type. Also the ride is much better and there is no noise from the tire at all. I can run 60MPH in control on a road that was recently covered with chips (small gravel) where with a motorcycle tire I could not keep the bike on a straight line at 30. So, if you don't like the idea don't do it but don't try to keep up with me on a twisty road either.
:)

I choose not to participate in the poll.
 

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I smoked for 20 years and didnt die, still happy too have quit. Been in the tire business for 25 years wouldnt think of putting a car tire on my bike. Dont think i will put a steering wheel on my bike either.
 

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I spent a good portion of my younger years living on the wild side & lived to tell a few stories. I had never heard of the Dark side untill I joined the forum but the more I read about it the more it interests me.

I believe what Erinpiper said is true. It takes people trying new ideas to push technology further. I am looking forward to hearing a report from Kit in the future.

My daysof living the wild side are over & I don't know if I would cross over to the Dark sidewhen I upgrade to an 1800but I am deffinatly not one to judge anyone who has the nerve to try it out.
 

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I dislike this poll. The 1st selection is highly inflamatory. Someone is seeking to disrupt the "Force", Luke!!! :shock:

It is extremely unsafe to venture out on any public roadway. Each time we return safely, we have been given another "gift". Life itself is extremely risky...and incredibly short. :(

I raise my glass to all adventurous souls who have discovered that which, trips their respective "triggers" and/or flips their switch!! NOSTROVIA...EIN PROSIT...CHEERS...BOTTOMS UP, Matee...:alco:
 

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Ok, so let's look at this realistically, and put things into their proper perspective.

Do you have handlebar extenders on your Wing? Take 'em off, Honda recommends against 'em. Not only do they move your handlebars, but they change the handling of the bike by changing the leverage point on the steering head.

How about forward pegs or boards on your case guards? Taking your feet away from the brake controls is unsafe. Get rid of 'em.

Trailer hitch? Gone! Honda refused to warranty their bad frame welds if it even looked like you'd had a trailer hitch on the bike. Time to lose that too.

Driver's backrest? It impedes the passenger's ability to safely leave the seat in case of emergency. Get rid of it.

Caliper covers could come loose and get wound up in your front wheel at highway speed.

Floorboards impede your ability to place your feet on the ground in the position the engineer designed the bike for you to put them down in. Those have to go too!

Now, before someone tries to argue that those things are made for your bike...no they're not. They're made "to fit" your bike. If they were made FOR your bike, Honda would put them on at the factory for you.

Each one of those readily accepted accessories presents it's very own safety issues. None of them were designed by the engineers who designed our bikes who we laud when we discuss the use of a different tire...yet we ignore their designing prowess when it comes to our own personal comfort.

This moment of round earth reality brought to the flat earthers of the world by me and me alone. Your mileage may vary. :)

Mike
 

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Daveo wrote:
Professionals in the field say it's not safe to do it.
I sincerely hope that laws are passed outlawing the practice .


It's all about safety.


Daveo
Let me start with the first statement.

To begin with please see my post on the tire thread in the tech section. Also you do realise that years ago there were many people just like you telling the first guy that used pledge on his windshield that it would melt or break apart at speed causing himself injury and possably injuring others as a result. If you think about it mostthings in the modern world(Democracy included) has had a large group of people sayingeverything from it is crazy and can't be done, to it is completly unsafe. Motorcycles, automobiles, and airplanes, Just to name a few.

Wonder what basket weavers thought when someone had the idea to tie a big basket to a biggerballoon and mount a oversized torch toit with the intention to fly."That is unsafe and you should not use that product in such a manner!"

Now as for passing laws. I think we have more laws than we need now. I have a real problem with the idea that the government needs to protect us from ourselves. I am more concerned with some guy on a bike making dinner plans on thephone while playing with his GPS, Than I am about a guy with a improper tire.

As for it being about safety, I know I will step on some toes here. While I will never discourage the use of safety gear on a bike, Personallyif I needed a full face helmet, acomplete kevlar armor and padded suit, and a bike with a airbag to feel safe on a motorcycle I wouldkeep my buttin a cage. Make that a cage with a full roll cage anda 5 point harness.:) That being said I can understand why many don't embrace the darkside
 

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MDKramer wrote:
Ok, so let's look at this realistically, and put things into their proper perspective.

Do you have handlebar extenders on your Wing? Take 'em off,
Accept your point Mike but still disagree. These items you list are not in the same league IMHO.

Messing with the only way your machine contacts terra firma is folly. CT's are designed to maintain a generally 90 degree, perpendicular relationship with the road and the whole casement is designed for that. The sidewalls are designed to take lateral forces in that axis. A MC tyre has a rounded profile and is designed to take loads from a wider range of angles to the road surface. End of. AFAIAC.

ps. As the owner of a stock GL1800, I claim the pious moral high ground :dude:
 

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Well I do not think I would like it very well if you all passed a law and would not let me be a DarkSider, I kinda like Dark, Miss Sandy has a suntan problem and those flashing eyes full of mischief, I kinda like the Dark myself. :D:D:D Kit
 

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wingcdr wrote:
#1 - Messing with the only way your machine contacts terra firma is folly.

#2 - CT's are designed to maintain a generally 90 degree, perpendicular relationship with the road and the whole casement is designed for that.

#3 - The sidewalls are designed to take lateral forces in that axis. A MC tyre has a rounded profile and is designed to take loads from a wider range of angles to the road surface. .............
I'm going to take exception to the above.

Statement #1 is opinion, not fact supported by evidence and intended to generate violent responses.

Statement #2 is simply not true. Put your 4 wheel vehicle into a hard turn, and you have long left the 90 degree angle situation. Sports cars go well beyond 90 degrees, I haven't measured it, but my eyes make me think I have seen leans in the 70 degree range. Cars weigh a lot more than bikes and the tires survive that mistreatment just fine.

Statement #3 pretty much goes along with #2. The lateral and vertical forces on a car tire change with the G forces of a hard turn. The load does NOT stay at a 90 degree angle, not even close.
 

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MDKramer wrote:
Ok, so let's look at this realistically, and put things into their proper perspective.

Do you have handlebar extenders on your Wing? Take 'em off, Honda recommends against 'em. Not only do they move your handlebars, but they change the handling of the bike by changing the leverage point on the steering head.

How about forward pegs or boards on your case guards? Taking your feet away from the brake controls is unsafe. Get rid of 'em.

Trailer hitch? Gone! Honda refused to warranty their bad frame welds if it even looked like you'd had a trailer hitch on the bike. Time to lose that too.

Driver's backrest? It impedes the passenger's ability to safely leave the seat in case of emergency. Get rid of it.

Caliper covers could come loose and get wound up in your front wheel at highway speed.

Floorboards impede your ability to place your feet on the ground in the position the engineer designed the bike for you to put them down in. Those have to go too!

Now, before someone tries to argue that those things are made for your bike...no they're not. They're made "to fit" your bike. If they were made FOR your bike, Honda would put them on at the factory for you.

Each one of those readily accepted accessories presents it's very own safety issues. None of them were designed by the engineers who designed our bikes who we laud when we discuss the use of a different tire...yet we ignore their designing prowess when it comes to our own personal comfort.

This moment of round earth reality brought to the flat earthers of the world by me and me alone. Your mileage may vary. :)

Mike
And Mike--the one thing that almost everyone ignores--The weight limitations of all Goldwings.
 
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