Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 47 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
imported post

Hi all,

I have recently purchased a '84 GL1200 standard with 25k miles on it. The PO said it has an electrical issue, the battery doesn't get charge. He said he replaced both stator and rectifier, and then gave up. I tested the new rectifier that came with the bike, and it doesn't pass the diode test. As he said, I measure ~12.5 volts in the battery with no change when the engine is running. The I took the old rectifier, which he also gave me. This pass the diode test, although I am getting around 3.5 Ohm on each diode, and I don't know if that is too much or too little resistance. In any case, I put ed the old rectifier on the bike and now I am getting charge. The thing is that I am getting more the 16 volts with the engine running, and the wires get kind of hot. I left it running for a while and no wire melted or anything, but it seems a lot of charging load. It is this normal? BTW, I also tested the stator according to the Clymer manual and it check out just fine.

Javier.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,163 Posts
imported post

Check your regulator. If it has an eight wire connector, there will be three yellows, two reds, two greens and a BLACK (black/green).

It needs to see system voltage on the black wire to determine how much to charge. It is critical for this voltage to be within 1/2 volt of battery voltage, or the system will overcharge.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,163 Posts
imported post

Sorry, I need to read more carefully.

If you get two different scenarios with two different components, then the problem lies with the component (Regulator)

But you still need to have battery voltage present at the black wire, or you'll fry the battery. Back probe the black wire at the regulator with 12volts and see if the charge rate goes down.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,824 Posts
imported post

To keep it simple!
Rectifier changes AC to ripple DC
This happens because of 6 diodes because the system is 3 phase, it has 3 power wires each with the same voltage and amps.
Diodes fail, fail open fail closed and the DC can be mingled with AC.
The resultant DC can go higher than 15 V
The mixed up DC has too much AC in it and plays havoc with the Regulator.

In your bike the regulator needs a reference to adjust the voltage to.
The reference is the battery.
The battery, a tank, must be at 12-15 V DC
The alternator by spinning delivers AC at various frequency
That various frequency is converted to a ripple DC, and at the same time to a lower voltage by the diodes also.
The DC is now regulated to useful voltage

Now you have 2 power sources in parallel, the battery and the alternator.
Alternator has 1 job, keeping the battery full.
Battery has the job of retaining power to deliver this power when alternator can not and saving power for start up.

Battery and alternator are joined by wires and cables and other things that must be clean, tight and able to handle the current.

Now throw into the mix a common carrier, the metal frame of the bike joined to the negative terminal, all to save an extra wire.

All together with everything from lights to starter you have the electrical system that works to keep the bike going.

So you have a rotary machine, coupled with a chemical box, mixed in with copper and varnish that harmonizes with other elements to start, run and ride a bike.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,163 Posts
imported post

ARKnapp wrote:
To keep it simple!
Rectifier changes AC to ripple DC
This happens because of 6 diodes because the system is 3 phase, it has 3 power wires each with the same voltage and amps.
Diodes fail, fail open fail closed and the DC can be mingled with AC.
The resultant DC can go higher than 15 V
The mixed up DC has too much AC in it and plays havoc with the Regulator.

In your bike the regulator needs a reference to adjust the voltage to.
The reference is the battery.
The battery, a tank, must be at 12-15 V DC
The alternator by spinning delivers AC at various frequency
That various frequency is converted to a ripple DC, and at the same time to a lower voltage by the diodes also.
The DC is now regulated to useful voltage

Now you have 2 power sources in parallel, the battery and the alternator.
Alternator has 1 job, keeping the battery full.
Battery has the job of retaining power to deliver this power when alternator can not and saving power for start up.

Battery and alternator are joined by wires and cables and other things that must be clean, tight and able to handle the current.

Now throw into the mix a common carrier, the metal frame of the bike joined to the negative terminal, all to save an extra wire.

All together with everything from lights to starter you have the electrical system that works to keep the bike going.

So you have a rotary machine, coupled with a chemical box, mixed in with copper and varnish that harmonizes with other elements to start, run and ride a bike.
To keep it simple?:D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
imported post

glhonda wrote:
Check your regulator. If it has an eight wire connector, there will be three yellows, two reds, two greens and a BLACK (black/green).

It needs to see system voltage on the black wire to determine how much to charge. It is critical for this voltage to be within 1/2 volt of battery voltage, or the system will overcharge.
Excuse my ignorance, but how exactly do I test this? Should I disconnect the regulator from the harness, connect the negative lead of the voltmeter on the battery and the positive on the black wire of the regulator? Or I am totally confused?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,465 Posts
imported post

jajgarcia wrote:
glhonda wrote:
Check your regulator. If it has an eight wire connector, there will be three yellows, two reds, two greens and a BLACK (black/green).

It needs to see system voltage on the black wire to determine how much to charge. It is critical for this voltage to be within 1/2 volt of battery voltage, or the system will overcharge.
Excuse my ignorance, but how exactly do I test this? Should I disconnect the regulator from the harness, connect the negative lead of the voltmeter on the battery and the positive on the black wire of the regulator? Or I am totally confused?
I'd disconnect the regulator plug and check for voltage at the black wire with the ignition on and if you do have voltage there the regulator part of the regulator/rectifier is most likely shot. If you don't have voltage there I think Mike was talking about using a jumper wire from the positive battery terminal to the black reference voltage wire to see if the regulator will work correctly.



Check the brand name on the 2 regulator's you've got. If either one is not made by Shindengen, toss it!! The Electrix and other aftermarket brands WILL NOT LAST!!!! The OEM Shindengen regulator is what you want and here's where you can get one:



http://www.regulatorrectifier.com/catalog/





They've got a chat link on the right side of the page so you can ask for what you need in real time and go from there if you need a new regulator! Nice people too!!:cool:



Welcome to the Site and Good luck with her!!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
imported post

Don,

I don't see any information about the brand in either of the two. Update: I tested again both old and new regulators. I read carefully the manual of my multimeter, and it has an specific function to test diodes. I used it to test both regulators, and both checked just fine. The only difference I see between them, is that the NEW regulator doesn't have a black wire (?). So perhaps the part is functional, but it could be that is the wrong one?

Anyhow, I am still confused about how to check the voltage on the black wire of the regulator. What I did was to disconnect it from the harness, move the ignition key to on, and measure the DC voltage by connecting the positive lead to the battery, and the negative to the black wire of the regulator. Is this correct? when I do this, I get very low voltage, like 0.4 V.

Thus, assuming that I am doing everything correctly, I am finding that the regulator seems to be fine, no voltage on the black wire, but still the system is overcharging.

One more thing: I left the battery all night long connected to a trickle charger and this morning was "still charging". Today I took the battery to a autoparts for testing and they say it needs to be replaced. Could this be affecting any of my readings?

Thanks!
Javier.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,824 Posts
imported post

I thought I read you are getting 16 V or higher, if you read this voltage at the battery terminals while connected to the alternator and on a running bike, you now have proof of a high reading.

And because your bike is a 1200 it is a PM type of alternating system and as such relies on 1 the regulator and 2 the rectifier to achieve near and maximum voltage with DC.

The AC side must also be verified to be correct with all 3 phase power because a faulty 3 phase system creates havoc with the load and the load is first the rectifier and then the regulator.

You need the proper AC values to reduce to the proper DC values.

AC at or near 50-70 in order to get the DC values to a maximum regulated 15 V

The DC from the rectifier will be higher so the regulator comparator can reduce it down.

In all practical good scenarios the final output is 15 V DC with no ripple effect after it enters the battery since the battery acts like a condenser and smooths out the ripple effect to produce more or less pure DC.

Instead of relying in ohmage, try voltage on the output of the rectifier and see that DC is there and at the same time use the AC scale to verify the DC reading. This will depend on the quality of your meter. Even if your DC reading is way high it may be AC trickling through from a faulty diode and checking the individual (6) diodes is a bit of a hassle without disassembling them, that is why ohmage is given, but the ohms reading can be swayed in parallel and series connections.

The service manual gives a good diagnosing test pattern with ohms, just keep your fingers away from the test leads so you are not part of the test.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
imported post

ARKnapp wrote:
I thought I read you are getting 16 V or higher, if you read this voltage at the battery terminals while connected to the alternator and on a running bike, you now have proof of a high reading.
I am getting 16 V or higher if I measure the voltage at the battery while the engine is running. The other measure was with the positive in the battery and the negative at the black wire of the regulator, with the engine off.

I don't quite understand the other things you said, but as far as I know all the diodes in the regulator tested fine to the best of my knowledge.

Javier.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,824 Posts
imported post

A bad battery will affect the charge system because the regulator looks at the battery for a voltage reference, if it sees 14.xx-15v then the regulator is set to dump the excess amps from the rotating charger via the SCR which uses a gate, that black wire to sense the voltage from the battery. But with a low battery voltage the SCR does not dump and electrons flow to the battery.

Although the regulator is the gateway as it opens or closes, the battery is in essence the control by which the gate opens or closes.

The PM system needs this gateway since it is always on when the bike runs.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,824 Posts
imported post

"I am getting 16 V or higher if I measure the voltage at the battery while the engine is running. The other measure was with the positive in the battery and the negative at the black wire of the regulator, with the engine off."

The battery is just a storage tank, so it does not generate voltage, but stores electrons shoved in from the conversion of magnetism v ia the alternator.

The battery called a 12 V battery gets its 12 V from outside the battery and the 12 V is a nominal #, the system is 10-15 V.

Let me say that 16 V reading is high but still within reason, tha max being 15 V but within reason. The bike is 30+ years old, the battery shows failing, and the battery is the reason the total reason for the charging system. MAKE SURE THE BATTERY IS GOOD.

Any other reading taken from a charging system while that charging system is off is of no use.

I continue to say start with a known good battery. Without a known good battery you are wasting time and confusing yourself.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,163 Posts
imported post

It looks to me that ARKnapp is doing a pretty good job of confusing too.

If the battery tested bad, replace the battery.

With the regulator unplugged and the key in the ON position (engine NOT running) place the red lead of the Voltmeter (on the 20v scale) on the black wire on the harness side (not the regulator). Place the black lead of the voltmeter on the negative battery post. You should have a reading close to battery voltage.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
imported post

I agree, I need to get a new battery. However, it kind of worries me the fact that if the system is putting too much voltage into the battery a new could get damage.
Also, do you know what are the specs for these batteries? I can see is much bigger that the ones in the other bikes I have seen, so I am wondering if I have to order it online, how do I know which is the correct one? I am looking in the owners manual but I see no info about it.
 

·
Vintage Rider
Joined
·
2,410 Posts
imported post

I have a related question. I have always heard this gadget with the 3 yellow wires, 2 green wires, 2 red/white wires, and one black wire, referred to as a R/R, or regulator/rectifier. Now I am being told that it is just a regulator. If it is, where is the rectifier? There has to be a device somewhere that converts the AC from the alternator to DC that the electrical system on the bike can use.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
imported post

glhonda wrote:
It looks to me that ARKnapp is doing a pretty good job of confusing too.

If the battery tested bad, replace the battery.

With the regulator unplugged and the key in the ON position (engine NOT running) place the red lead of the Voltmeter (on the 20v scale) on the black wire on the harness side (not the regulator). Place the black lead of the voltmeter on the negative battery post. You should have a reading close to battery voltage.

 
Ok, doing that I do get close values, the battery reads 12.02 V, in the black wire gives me 11.37 V. Any ideas where can I get a new battery?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
26,155 Posts
imported post

The battery can cause the system to overcharge if it is trying to charge a battery that is bad. Another thing to look at is the ground for the regulator (the 2 green wires), if it is not grounded well it will also cause overcharging.
Yes JerryH, it is a regulator/rectifier, most just shorten it to regulator to keep from having to type the full nomenclature.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
imported post

Would like to clarify something.
You stated you have performed tests with old and new regulator and that one of them causes overcharging wile one does not allow the bike to charge at all above battery voltage is that correct? If your new regulator has no black wire and the harness that plugs into it does then that's a problem. If you are still using the white connectors at the regulator(which you should not be by the way)-each wire on the bike side should have a corresponding wire mated to it on the regulator connector. Is this the case?

Also -not sure if this was mentioned alreadybut have you checked the stator connection near the battery and preferably removed it by soldering the wires? Once the charging is sorted out this also need to be done at the regulator.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,465 Posts
imported post

jajgarcia wrote:
glhonda wrote:
It looks to me that ARKnapp is doing a pretty good job of confusing too.

If the battery tested bad, replace the battery.

With the regulator unplugged and the key in the ON position (engine NOT running) place the red lead of the Voltmeter (on the 20v scale) on the black wire on the harness side (not the regulator). Place the black lead of the voltmeter on the negative battery post. You should have a reading close to battery voltage.
Ok, doing that I do get close values, the battery reads 12.02 V, in the black wire gives me 11.37 V. Any ideas where can I get a new battery?
If you want to use a lead/acid battery, I'm presently using one I got from Autozone and it's seems to do OK so far...



From your readings in your last post it does indeed sound as if the regulator portion of the regulator/rectifier has taken a dump!! If it were my bike a new battery and regulator would be in order!!:coollep:



Oh yeah... How about some pic's??!!!! ILIKE those GL1200 Standard's!!!!!!:cool::cool:
 
1 - 20 of 47 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top