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what are the views on using full synthetic oil in a bike with a wet clutch , will it cause it to slip ? dose it really give you any better engine protection for the price ? i have always just used good conventional oil andi keep it changed regularly ...
 

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Moonshiner there are lots of opinions on this site about Synthetic vs Petroleum based oils. Just do a search on Synthetic or Mobile 1 or Rotella etc and you will find many many threads with lots of opinions.

Enjoy the Site.

Henry
 

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For normal riding regular Motorcycle oil will do you just fine. If you are doing some high mileage stuff with lots of hot summer days synthetic is an option. I think if you keep the oil changed by service guidelines, you should not have any problems. Do stay away from the energy saving oils though.
 

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moonshiner wrote:
what are the views on using full synthetic oil in a bike with a wet clutch , will it cause it to slip ? dose it really give you any better engine protection for the price ? i have always just used good conventional oil andi keep it changed regularly ..
Using synthetic oils will not make your clutch slip. According to the manufactures, using oil with energy conserving additives may cause clutch slippage.

There are many full synthetic oils that are marketed specifically for motorcycles with wet clutches. I have used both automotive and motorcycle specific synthetics with no ill effects. I have followed the manufactures recommendation, and have not used any oil with the "Energy Conserving" label.

Synthetic oils do offer superior lubrication properties. But do the conditions that require this level of protection exist in a typical engine. I know of no one that has done regular oil changes with conventional oil that ever had a oil related failure.

Is synthetic oil worth the cost? That's a question that I suspect will be debated forever.
 

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I use Amsoil 10W40 full syn with my wet clutch and have no problems what so ever. The tranny shifts smoother, the clutches do not slip and the engine runs cooler. As long as the synthetic oil you choose doesn no have friction reducers in it you should be fine.

Bernie
 

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.... was your bike designed for it?...
 

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I've used synthetic oil in both my Goldwings. The only reason I do it is because it feels better in the shifting. That's the only difference I can tell.

I've used all kinds of oil, almost always the choice based on how much money was in my pocket at the time. The only difference is in the shifting.

Some synthetics don't feel any better than the conventional oil. Amsoil always felt the best, but the price got too outrageous. Now I use Mobil 1 that I get at Wal-mart.

The only time I ever had a problem was when my clutch was worn out and ready to fail. It started slipping and I switched back to conventional and it bought me some time. After I put in the new clutch, I went back to synthetic.
 

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CaptainMidnight85 wrote:
.... was your bike designed for it?...
I don't understand what point the picture is trying to make? Is it saying that the space between the rings and the cylinder walls is exactly one molecule in diameter? Otherwise the picture looks to me like the synthetic oil is better at filling in small gaps and therefore provides better lubrication.



I have never heard of a Goldwing engine wearing out from using cheap oil vs expensive oil. I don't think that the use of conventional or synthetic is going to make a significant difference in the wear of the engine. I could be wrong and there may be cases out there, but I think that it'sreally a case synthetic beingoverkill, and providing more protection than the bike really needs.

In my case, if it didn't seem to make a difference in the shifting, Idon't think I would do it.
 

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Dubswing wrote:
I use Amsoil 10W40 full syn with my wet clutch and have no problems what so ever. The tranny shifts smoother, the clutches do not slip and the engine runs cooler. As long as the synthetic oil you choose doesn no have friction reducers in it you should be fine.

Bernie
+1. Same here. :)
 

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CaptainMidnight85 wrote:
.... was your bike designed for it?...
I'm really curious, what's your source for the molecule size info?
 

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Wolfman wrote:
CaptainMidnight85 wrote:
.... was your bike designed for it?...
I don't understand what point the picture is trying to make?
Well, without getting into a physics debateover atomic chain structures and the processesof manipulating them (but hey, I'm game for anything) andconceding that my pictures and drawings are somewhat over-simplified for a few, I do believe them to be an accurate portrayal of the picture I am trying to paint.My own oil analysis endeavorsare the primary backingfor my pictures. Although, I'll glean information and datafrom any reliable source.



Not what you're looking for, but: http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/oil_school.shtml

...
 

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CaptainMidnight85 wrote:
Wolfman wrote:
CaptainMidnight85 wrote:
.... was your bike designed for it?...
I don't understand what point the picture is trying to make?
Well, without getting into a physics debateover atomic chain structures and the processesof manipulating them (but hey, I'm game for anything) andconceding that my pictures and drawings are somewhat over-simplified for a few, I do believe them to be an accurate portrayal of the picture I am trying to paint.My own oil analysis endeavorsare the primary backingfor my pictures. Although, I'll glean information and datafrom any reliable source.



Not what you're looking for, but: http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/oil_school.shtml

...
No, I'm not up for a debate, because I'm the first to admit in this area, I'm no expert. Actually I would rather learn from all theories, and then at least when I choose, I know what the reprocussions of my choices may be. And I have lots of questions if you have the patience. :)

The second set of pictures tell a better story. Especially after seeing the first set. I was headed in the right direction then when I was thinking about the gap between the pistons (rings) and the cylinder walls. That's what the second set of pictures seems to lead to.

But the Volvo page you link to seems to support the opposite theory, that the consistancy of the synthetic is better because it's consistant.
I have no idea how big an oil molecule is in relation to the space between moving parts. Seriously I would have assumed that the oil film between the rings and the walls was many, many layers of molecules thick. I'm thinking that the film of oil is dozens if not hundreds of molecules thick.

The pictures you have seem to indicate otherwise.

So would it be true, that an engine designed for average use has more tolerance or space in the design because it is designed with conventional oils in mind? And therefore a true high performance engine is designed to even tighter tolerances because the engine is designed to only use synthetic?

The last two pictures seem to indicate it would be counter productive to run synthetic in an engine not designed for it, but a blend would be acceptable.

Considering that I have run blends and straight synthetics since I started riding Goldwings, what would be the down side to using a straight synthetic. Will there be a noticable negative side? Keep in mind I never notice an improvment in performance, but I do notice an improvment in shifting gears.
 

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I have a foot in both camps, I'm using a semi synthetic. These engines were designed for use with mineral oils, the tolerances and clearances are greater than those of cars or bikes designed for use with synthetic oils. The bonus for us of course is that the synthetics are more stable, less acidic and take longer to break down than mineral oils. They offer longer change times and offer better protection than mineral oils. But I should point out though than modern mineral oils are close to 20% synthetic with all the additives, detergents, friction modifiers etc added.

The only downside I can see is your pocket might be a lot lighter. Synthetic oils are a superior oil, which will give you better protection at well below freezing point and at very hot temperatures. It is very stable is not affected by the cold as mineral oils become waxey as the temps drop, synthetic remains fluid it doesn't become contaminated by water or condensation as mineral oils do. It is the way of the future and you will see that synthetic oils have dropped in price compared to mineral oils in the past few years.
 

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I'll try the short answer, as I'm no expert either, just a analist with a fervent need to know a whole lot about 'nothing. The first picture is one I had posted on another thread of the same subject some time ago. The second picture is one I made for your response, and the verbiage was primarily meant for aht_six....

I didn't offer a theory pro or con on the use of synthetic oil, just a visual representation of the dynamics of the different oils. The Volvoclub page, youand I are in agreement. Synthetic oil is better because of its consistency, and many other factors. Again, mydrawings are simplistic, but yes, oil molecules are many layers thick until, for example, a sheer force is applied. Then it is every molecule for himself. With the inconsistency of conventional oil molecule size, a great number are larger rather than smaller. This larger size moleculehas a longer life span due to a variety of factors, heat being the primary one. Knowing van der Waals force in these structured molecules, we see that the oil molecules, whether conventional or synthetic, are attracted to the surfaces that they encounter and to each other. I forget who had the commercial where they heated a metal surface from below and the two separate pools of oil eventually drew themselves together as one pool, but this is the van der Waals force in action. Now with this being said, the Pauli Exclusion Principle does not allow the two molecules to combine. As the two molecules get close, 'ol Pauli and his electron seperation crew keep them separated and never allow them to combine. It is this repulsion that makes motor oil slippery, be it conventional or synthetic. Keeping motor oil under pressure pretty much guarantees that two surfaces will never touch if designed not to do so when external force is applied to two mating surfaces. van der Waals and Pauli are stronger than all combined here on this site when put under pressure in this application (think bearings... rod, main, cam, what-have-you). Your direction of leading into the piston ring/cylinder wall is the best probably avenue for descripting the exclusion of benefits provided by the pressurized safety of the oil. Between the outer surface of the ring and the cylinder wall there is whole lot happening in a very short amount of time when it comes to oil control. And that control is pretty much out the hands of the oil as mechanical designtakes over in the role of friction controller. But, to not create a novel here, lets jump to blow-by at the piston ring and recognize that the oil has contamination no matter the condition of the engine, old or new......



This concludes part 1, as it is nearly 3:00 am and way past my nap time. Part to folllow. :)
 

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CaptainMidnight85 wrote:
...with a fervent need to know a whole lot about 'nothing...
I like that.The more I know, the more empowered I feel. :)
 
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