Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This thread will be sure to evolve.
The goals are (in a loose order):
1) 1 coil per cylinder
2) 1 amplifier per cylinder
3) Over-voltage
4) The largest gap I can use reliably for my application (Nitrous)
5) The highest peak voltage I can muster without overheating
6) Multiple discharge per event to as high a RPM as I can get it before tapering off to a single spark per event
7) ...and probably more to come. I'm sure that I'm forgetting something.

The coils are temporarily mounted in the position that I want them in. Mounting is strong enough for testing now.
The coils are using the same 8ga. Scoshce amplifier power cable that I'm using on my daily rider and not equal length at this time. Nor are they wired on the primary side yet.
The NGK boots are without resistors.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
948 Posts
What kind of coils are those? Where did they come from?

Scott
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Honda VFR 800

I forget the specific year.

An eBay purchase. I think I paid somewhere around $25/$30.00 shipped for them. I don't remember exactly right now. They were complete; coil, wire and boot each.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
198 Posts
You aren't experimenting on my poor GL1000 are you? :)

Seriously though, once the bugs are worked out should this type of upgrade be a good thing for a non nitrous bike? And what benefit would be expected?

Sorry if these seem like stupid questions but I thought I would ask.

Rod
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Haha - nope. Yours is in the background, I think in the last picture.
No, ...no real benefit to a stock bike other than to say you've got something different. There may be easier starting and running on a bike that has the usual lack of maintenance but that isn't a good reason to compensate with this ignition.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
198 Posts
OK, so in other words, don't be lazy and keep up with all the proper maintenance. :lash:

I will watch this thread anyway, just to see how it works out. I doubt I ever feel the need to add nitrous, but hey you never know.

Rod
 

·
Piled Higher and Deeper
Joined
·
4,513 Posts
CM.... I'm not current on Nitrous technology.. so bare with me.. last time I did it was in '82 on a 110 Hp Volvo I/O (added an instantaneous 40 Hp that made for a nice quick jump out of the water for my skiiers.. but that is off topic..) but my comment is, I didn't have any trouble with spark or ignition... it worked fine with the kettering points/coil system.. why the exotic setup for your Nitrous application??? the real problem is NO/fuel management (I made my own fuel and NO intake injection system) and keeping the heads on and sealed.. will follow with interest...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Well Jim, I could easily use the ignition that I'm using on the '78 now (Dyna III, 1100 coils, Copper wire HT leads, NGK boots and plugs). It is more than sufficient for supplying adequate spark throughout the rev-range.

I want to stay with a inductive ignition. I see it as an old-school approach. The only way I know of running the coils as hot as possible is to feed them as much voltage as possible. The key (based from my experience) is to not burn them up while doing it. I see a single coil as being more efficient than a dual output coil for a daily rider in dissipating heat when pushed. I've done no actual testing to verify any of these thoughts, but I will as I go along. It seems a common-sense issue to me.

Why the need for more voltage?
Well, I know of only one way to get to a failure analysis, and that is to load the cylinders with enough pressure to pop a head gasket. In saying this, I want the failure to be from too much mixture fired at exactly the right time without having to go back and look at a weak spark issue upon initiation of the firing voltage to the plug at any RPM, but specifically the upper RPM's near or past normal redline.

In short and of my opinion only at this point, 4 individual coils have to be better than two paired coils in controlling spark so long as reliability does not become a negative factor. Less components means less component failure. I know. I see this probability as a positive maximum performance trade-off.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Jim - I will be going single-fire, as well, with this 4-coil set-up. ;)
 

·
Registered
2000 GL1500 SEI Trike, 1985 GL1200 , 1972 Honda CB750, 1996 Honda VT1100, 2019 HD Low Rider
Joined
·
21 Posts
using 4 spark units with 2 pickups?
I'm following this as I am running coil on plug, and have them paralleled now, but want more than 6 volts to them...

also, anyone ever try using the ls2 coils from gm, the ones with the built in igniter?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
No - 4 pick-ups (modules or triggering device).
Each coil (each cylinder) will be controlled by its own pick-up/trigger/module.
This will be a single-fire conversion.
Not a wasted spark design.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I converted the daily rider to this swap yesterday ...partially.

Normally I would remount my 1100 coils behind my single-carb conversion to allow accessing the duct for my intake when cold weather hits. A process of preparing for colder weather that I would rather not have to do anymore.

Bike is running wasted spark still, but with four individual coils - TEC mp06 X 4 from a VFR800

Wired in parallel = 3 ohms
3 ohm resistance requires no ballast resistor for my Dyna III

Included are:
Scosche o2-free 8 gauge amplifier power cable for HT leads.
New NGK straight plug boots with 5K ohm resistors.
I did not change sparkplugs.
Mounted coils in the same location as on test bike.
Primary wiring (Dyna triggers from module) went directly to the female connector at the junction box under the left shelter, doing-away with the coils sub-harness (the plug that the factory coils use to connect to the bikes main wiring at the junction box). I've jumpered the the female plug where the resistor would plug in.

I have not scoped the ignition yet.
In free-air observation I can see a dramatic increase in spark intensity.

Some pics to follow.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Not a read-to-go bolt-on swap.

It runs and is rideable.
I have to put the 1100 coils back on until I get time to figure out how to do this properly in a wasted-spark scheme.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I've run into a problem that shouldn't be with these digital coils.

I need to thoroughly test each coil and spec them out as I can find no information on TEC mp06 coils.

I may have to make a sequencer to run these in wasted spark. :lash:

I had to advance the ignition an absurd amount for it to start and run. So, something is not right. :sadguy:
 

Attachments

·
It aint rocket science
Joined
·
3,857 Posts
Is it possible there is a ms delay between time of trigger of the big coils over OEM.

For kicks try widening the plug gap to .060 inch or thereabouts.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Is it possible there is a ms delay between time of trigger of the big coils over OEM.

For kicks try widening the plug gap to .060 inch or thereabouts.
Well, ..the coils aren't much larger individually. I'm don't believe the size of the coil is playing a particular role in this.

There is a definite delay in time from the triggering event to the spark event.

My intention was to get the new coil set-up ironed out on a test bike and then swap it over to my daily rider, but... I rushed the process and dd the swap without following my own plan.

When initially installed, I intentionally left everything as-is for a easy comparison once the engine was started.
When I finished installing, I expected the engine to start. I had nothing and didn't expect that.
Perplexed, I thought about it for some hours and at about 3am decided to advance the ignition until it started. Was I surprised! ...
Hard to see how far advanced in the picture above. I'll post a picture below better showing just how far advanced I had to go.

So, I decided to time it anew and start from there.
The Dyna III allows adjustment of both triggers on the plate versus a Dyna S allowing for only one trigger adjustment. Surely a simple process to adjust, right?

Well, ...

...adjusted spot-on and there is so much delay in spark event that the engine won't even turn over.

___________________________

My thoughts without scoping anything at this point are:
1) Coils - are meant for a digital triggering scheme from a ECM. Saturation and dwell times, collapse of the primary in transferring energy to the secondary, and possibly other "coil-specific" events are not happening when needed. I need to test for polarity on these particular coils, as I'm assuming I know what the polarity actually is and believe polarity is purposeful with these type of coils. I need to spec the coils out and not run blind with them. Foolish for me to assume anything and I know better. I got lazy...
2) My primary wiring is two-conductor power cord from a scrapped appliance and is quite long as installed. Contributing? I don't know right now. It shouldn't be playing a role as large as I'm seeing in any delay.
3) ...and what else? There must be more. I'm running 5K ohm's of resistance in the plug boots as bought that isn't present on the prior coil arrangement.

What I'm trying to do is nothing new. Vehicles run odd-fire wasted spark with huge success. Could be that the wasted cylinder in my arrangement is getting a positive spark (when previously it was getting a negative spark) and that is contributing? That really shouldn't matter as I see it.

Could be... I have a bad coil. I bought them off of eBay.
In any event, I don't have the time right now to concentrate on this without a quick answer to the solving the problem as the bike is down and I've nothing to ride because of it ...and that ain't happening. So, the 1100 coil set-up is going back on it until I finish the process of testing and ironing it out for install as originally intended. The 1100 arrangement is perfect for my bike as-is naturally aspirated.
 

Attachments

·
It aint rocket science
Joined
·
3,857 Posts
Any merit to the proximity of multiple pick-ups screwing with the magnetic field causing a delay.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Any merit to the proximity of multiple pick-ups screwing with the magnetic field causing a delay.
I'm not sure I follow.
The pick-ups shouldn't be causing any problem. They triggered the old set-up fine.
Along with advancing the plate I had add a slight amount of separation to the pick-ups for best starting and running, which would seem that things are happening too fast there? ...

Noted also was after started and running, ..and at idle, I could retard the ignition back to something close to stock visually and get a better idle. Doing this sacrificed all other aspects of the engine running at anything off idle though. Off idle clearly needed advance.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Slightly off topic, but maybe not.
Wonder if series with the larger coils vould be the problem?
I am thinking of trying this...
http://www.efisource.com/shop/4-cylinder-coil-igniter/
so I can run a full 12 volts to each of my cop's, still wasted spark.
I plan to add amplifiers later with this.
I was thinking the Dyna III amp should be able to handle the duty of charging the coils until then.
I could be wrong.

Not much information out there for CPC (what we're doing) or COP (what you're doing).
Coil-per-cylinder w/wasted spark isn't new, ...just new for me and my Goldwing.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top