[dat7]

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This GL1100 Std is only showing less than 8K on the speedo, but it sat idle form '88 'til now. Went completely through the fuel system from the tank, what I couldn't clean up, I replaced with new. Replaced old timing belts and after I cranked her, she was unable to idle even after reaching temp. When I hooked the carb sync gauges, I saw that I only have 1" of vacuum on any of the carbs and I tried looking for a gross leak by spraying the carbs from the airbox to the heads with WD40 at every joint including the vacuum chamber seal, hoping that the vacuum leak would reveal itself by causing the engine to increase rpm's when it picked up the WD40. No luck! I have minimum 135 psi compression on all four cylinders and the engine sounds good even though it has sluggish revs and will only idle at 1,000 rpm's when the throttle is held in place by the cruise clamp on the throttle. It seems to idle smooth enough then, but I can't get the idle screw adjustment to screw in far enough to hold the 1K idle. Can this be a valve seating problem? It seems to be getting better after I opened the pilot screws on #1&3, but you can clearly smell that they are rich at about 2 1/2 turns open. Any suggestions? :gunhead:
Thanks,
Don

 

[PatinIdaho]

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Are you sure BOTH cams are in time with the crankshaft? I know one tooth off will do some strange things.

Pat

 

[Jerryk]

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Hi Don,

You said you went through the entire fuel system but did that include rebuilding the carbs? :stumped:If not, I would recommend removing the carbs and get theHonda Kits plus the diaphragms and going through them. After you rebuild them you'll need to sync them. It's going to cost you about $400.00 in parts but there worth it. :skipping:

If you did rebuild the carbs, where did you buy the kits from? I made the mistake of getting some kits off of E-bay and the o rings were all wrong. It was a waste of $75.00.

Did you replace the O rings on the intake manifolds? :stumped:

Let us know how you are doing.

Jerry

 

[dat7]

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PatinIdaho,
I had a post a couple of weeks back about that very same thing and posted the following pic. Most everyone who viewed the post seem to think I was making much ado about nothing...

 

[dat7]

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JerryK,
I did not use Honda parts, I did buy them from a Canadian firm called SiriusConsolidatedInc.com. The kits were made by Keyster. I put new air cut-off's (K&L) and accelerator pump. They were seriously varnished and I took great pains cleaning them up.
Yes, I did replace the intake o-rings.
Appreciate all your advice!
Thanks,
Don :waving:

 

[PatinIdaho]

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Well to me it sure looks like it is one tooth off:shock:If your crank if dead on the mark i sure would turn that cam one tooth cuz it's off. Or maybe you already have.I missed the post a few weeks ago sorry:?

 

[Jerryk]

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Hi Don,

I bought my kits for Canada also and most of the o-rings were the wrong size. Did you match them against the old ones?:baffled: I guess I would say try the timing belt adjustment first, and if that does'nt work, it's back to the carbs. Sorry but after buying the Honda Kits, those other kits are a joke. The only good thing I found was they came with the needle and seat. :gunhead:

Jerry:11red::1000red:

 

[exavid]

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dat7 wrote:

PatinIdaho,
I had a post a couple of weeks back about that very same thing and posted the following pic. Most everyone who viewed the post seem to think I was making much ado about nothing...

It's not really possible to tell if you're belt is off a cog or not from this photo. If the camera isn't perfectly aligned with the camshaft parallax is going to make the mark look off. If the other cam pulley is off about the same amount on the opposite side of the mark you're probably right on. It's not always possible to get them perfect. I wasn't able to get my 1200 closer than about a half tooth off. I did a little experiment when I changed belts on my 1200. I tried running it with the cam deliberately set one tooth off. I really couldn't see any difference. I didn't ride it a long distance that way since I left the cover off while testing it, but as far as idle and acceleration there didn't seem to be any difference.

135psi compression does seem a bit on the low side. Did you take it with a warm engine, with the plugs out and the throttle wide open?

My guess is that you are going to have to figure out the low vacuum first. Either it's a cockpit problem or there's a serious vacuum leak. A vacuum leak will affect the lower rpms more severely since the total airflow in the system is so much less then and a leak is a lot larger proportion of the total. Once you solve that you have a lot better chance with the idle problem.

 

[PatinIdaho]

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EXAVID:Your right about the angle. I remember from changing my belts a few weeks ago and from changing belts 12ish years ago that when there on there right they will look a half tooth off.

I was thinking that a poor idle and low vacume COULD be caused by the cam being one tooth off and from the photo it sure looks like a tooth off

135psi does sound like it is low on compression and would also give poor idle.

I would think the more it runs the higher the compression will comeup. Maybe sticky rings? With only 8k on the engine it surly cant be worenout if it did not rustup.

dat7: Are all 4 plugs firing? Is the ignation in time?. You said you can not find a vacume leak so I assume there is none. Are all the carbs getting fuel? are any fludding? IF the plugs have gotten soaked they could be bad. I have seen new plugs put into a flooded engine that got soaked enough with gas that they would not fire right.It kinda sounds like 1&3 are doing the work and 2&4 are along for the ride and not doing there share. Im no expert but these are some things that need looking at.

Pat

 

[dat7]

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exavid,
The engine was warm, but the rest of the plugs were in and I did not have the throttle wide open. I'll do a more thorough check and repost the results.
I do appreciate knowing the results of your experiment with the cam belts. I'm starting to wonder if I'm looking at a valve seating problem.
Thanks for the insight! :?
Don

 

[dat7]

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PatinIdaho,
Yes, I appear to be getting good fire on all four cyls. No evidence of flooding on any cylinder, but #3 looks to be running really lean. Upon a closer inspection of the tops of the pistons and the valve stems and seats, the carbon buildup appears to be significant. Throttle must be run up app. 1/8" beyond the furthest point achievable on the idle adjustment screw (done by using the cruise clamp). However, after warming up, it seems to idle smooth enough more especially after having been run several times now... really starting to question the valve seats. What do you think?
I really appreciate your input!
Don :gunhead:

 

[PatinIdaho]

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I would think if all holes have close to the same compression the valve's are seating ok. You say it seems to be running a little better everytime you run it. When you went through the carbs did you blow compressed air through all the little ports to make sure they were clear?.Are the slids moving freeley? I remember reading someplace that the high and low speed jets could be installed backwords.(Dont know if thats fits your carbs or not)

It sounds kinda like your carbs are plugged alittle and the more your running it the more they are slowley clearing out and if that is whats happining you will need to clean the carbs again to get it ALL out.IF your running way to rich that could account for the low compression/vacume as the fuel is washing the oil out and the rings need a little oil for a good seal but you say 3 looks lean?

 

[GWEddie]

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One tooth off isn't going to make the bike run bad. It's similar with car engines, quite often the timing marks are a tooth off even when new. Two teeth would be a problem all right. I think you have a problem with the aftermarkey carb kits you bought, some of these are of terrible quality.

 

[exavid]

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PatinIdaho wrote:

I would think if all holes have close to the same compression the valve's are seating ok.

Sounds right to me. I think the low compression was due to having the plugs in the holes which would slow the cranking speed. Don't usually seem them all go down that evenly. I'd go for dirty carbs, can't believe the vacuum is that low, has to be a cockpit problem. 1" vacuum is almost aWOT reading. Couldn't be a vacuum leak that big and run at all.

I'd bet a few dollars the problem is in the carburetors, float levels off can do strange things and it affects the low speed area most. I wouldn't worry about the carbon unless it's a 1/16" thick and that's unlikely. Seafoam, MMO, and other miracle in a can will take care of that.

:waving::15red::waving:

 

[dat7]

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PatinIdaho,
The carbs were in the worst shape ever before cleaning (found a mummified cigarette in the intake), so not only did I soak them in Berryman's, but I hand cleaned them with Gumout carb & choke cleaner and yes, I blew them dry with air. They were pristine when they were assembled. Haven't had a chance to do the wide open, no plugs compression check yet, but when I do I'll post the results. The deal with the #3 cyl running lean is what lead me to open the pilot screws on #1 & #3, and that is what produced the rich exhaust. Valves look pretty gunked up, that leads me to wonder if they might be seating poorly. I've given them a good shot of MMO, but so far haven't gotten to the bottom of the nearly nil vacuum.
Thanks!
Don

 

[dat7]

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exavid,
I understand your perception and how you might have arrived at it, but there's just no way these carbs went back together dirty! While I am at a loss to explain the low vacuum :gunhead: and I'm not saying that I'm above making mistakes (been there, done that!) I am starting to question the possibility of an internal vacuum leak due in part to not being able to detect the increased rpms that should have occurred when WD40 was sprayed all around the intakes and at every connection all the way to the airbox. I checked the float level with digital calipers before the bowls went on...
:?
The other bothersome thing is how the idle screw appears to be about 1/8" short when screwed all the way up. In other words, I have to set the cruise control clamp to hold the idle at 1,000 rpm's and the idle screw is screwed all the way in and still lacking 1/8" touching the stop???
If the keyster carb kits are my prob, then I'm one sick puppy, but I'm yet to be convinced. I'm going heavy on the analytical 'til I nail this thing down.
Thanks for your insight and I'll tell it like it is, whatever I discover. Right now, I'd happily settle for a glaring example of my own bungling oversight even amounting to colossal proportions, if it would just allow me to square this thing and move on!
Shoot up here among us, someone's got to have some relief! LOL :clapper:

 

[PatinIdaho]

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You say you blew them dry with air.....I assume you blew air through ALL the ports and there all clean.

Here are two off the wall things to try. With the bike idleing at 1000 rpm's try taking of one spark plug wire at a time and listen to see if it makes a differance on each cylender. Your trying to hear if you get a miss or there is no change. The other thing to try is rev the sucker up to about 4 grand and slam the choke shut for just a second with out letting the engine die. Sounds funny but on the rare instance i have seen it work on cars to suck the gunk through

Might try changing the idle screw to a longer one that you can get an idle with. Try ridding up and down the street and see how it runs there is a chance the screw in there now was put there by mistake andIS to short.

So far to me it sounds like a carb problim or maybe retarded timing. But like i have said before im no guru just working from experence and without actually hearing it run it's 100 times harder.

Pat

 

[twisty]

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dat7 wrote:

This GL1100 Std is only showing less than 8K on the speedo, but it sat idle form '88 'til now. Went completely through the fuel system from the tank, what I couldn't clean up, I replaced with new. Replaced old timing belts and after I cranked her, she was unable to idle even after reaching temp. When I hooked the carb sync gauges, I saw that I only have 1" of vacuum on any of the carbs and I tried looking for a gross leak by spraying the carbs from the airbox to the heads with WD40 at every joint including the vacuum chamber seal, hoping that the vacuum leak would reveal itself by causing the engine to increase rpm's when it picked up the WD40. No luck! I have minimum 135 psi compression on all four cylinders and the engine sounds good even though it has sluggish revs and will only idle at 1,000 rpm's when the throttle is held in place by the cruise clamp on the throttle. It seems to idle smooth enough then, but I can't get the idle screw adjustment to screw in far enough to hold the 1K idle. Can this be a valve seating problem? It seems to be getting better after I opened the pilot screws on #1&3, but you can clearly smell that they are rich at about 2 1/2 turns open.

Don, I'm not familiar with the 1100 carbs but have done a lot of work on my 1200 carbs and from my experience it sure sounds like your carb idle circuits are not operating correctly.

What happens when the idle circuits are non functional is it forces the throttle plates to be opened much farther to idleand that significantly lowers the manifold vacuum due to less intake restriction at idle and also forces the carbs to get their idle mixture from the main jet needle circuit so that also requires the throttle plates to be opened enough to pull fuel from the main jet.

I'm not sure where your problem lies but possibly the pilot jet screw "O" rings are installed incorrectly and have lodged in the needle port or the floats are set too low and not allowing fuel to enter the pilot jet channels. You might even have missing passage plugs that aren't allowing the pilot jet fuel circuits to pull in fuel. 'are your idle air cut-off passages and diaphragms operational and open?'

I have been chasing an off-idlelean condition on my 1200 since last fall and finally found the problem, it was the pilot jet "O" rings and ring washers were installed backwards on 3 or the 4 carbs'washer first then "O" rings' by the previous owner. Simple problem but it took me quite a while to actually find it.

I'm not sure how the 1100 carbs compare to the 1000 but maybe this 1000 carb site will help shed some light on your problem.

http://www.randakks.com/Carb%20Parts.htm



Twisty

 

[dat7]

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PatinIdaho,
I'm "betting the farm" on the fact that I was diligent to a fault in cleaning these carbs, due to the fact that I knew going into it just how gunked up they were. I did try the removing one spark plug at a time method to try and isolate the problem. #3 seems to be the weak link... you can hear it getting fire, big time, but the miss that occurs is not sufficient to cause it to go dead at idle (1K rpm). I've been leaning toward carbon on the valves causing them to not seat properly. There seems to be a sound in the exhaust that when you hold your hand directly behind the right exhaust while running makes a funny slapping type sound and when holding a piece of paper in the exhaust flow exhibits a tendency to be sucked back toward the engine as it is firing. I've been feeding MMO into the intake, but have not seen adequate results to justify continued treatments. I have tried ripping up and down the street, but at this point am relying on front brakes only due to a rear brake master cylinder malfunction which prohibits use of the rear brakes- sigh!
When looking into the intake port on the head (mainly checking to make sure the o-ring was in place) I did notice how much carbon was in evidence on the valve and stem, leaving me to wonder about the exhaust valve. If it doesn't clear up with fuel additives and soon, I'll have to assume that it needs to be reseated or replaced.
Thanks for the ideas!
Don :waving:

 

[dat7]

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twisty,
That is an avenue I have not explored, but rest assured I will look into it and thanks for steering me in that direction. Check out my reply to PatinIdaho and see if my description of the difference in sound from the right exhaust doesn't sound consistent with a leaky exhaust valve to you. I'm trying to "exhaust" (no pun intended) every lead before I start tearing this beast down again. I think you may have something about this pilot jet o-ring thingy and I'm gonna' include that possibility in my list of "things to check before I go crazy"! LOL
I have much respect for Randakk!
Thanks,
Don :clapper: