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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I was thinking the clutch springs. They weaken with time.

They will cause the clutch to slip. With the extra weight of the sidecar it might be the tipping point. When slipping, the clutch might overheat the Slave cylinder.

However channeling or ducting air down there is a great idea and incorporating a "heat shield" in the process is a better one!!


Tim
Clutch springs are something I'd not considered, 32 year old springs will have lost there tension, any slight slipping friction would increase the heat at the contact point of the operating arm transferring it to the clutch fluid.
As a temporary measure I may try to fabricate some form of air scoop as suggested, the hack is hung on the left side and I have stainless Motad exhausts fitted so the heat from them can be quite high in any dead air zones. just been for a short ride to gas her up and all is well, come Friday I have anther 150 mile trip to make however the hills are not as steep in the reverse direction so I'm not expecting any issues this time.


There is a 90 deg right hand bend at one of the gear change points, I take the corner at around 55-60mph, but as the master cylinder is full and the bike remains upright, I can't see that the delivery hole in the master would be uncovered, the air is always at the slave cylinder end, right at the bleed nipple. If I had the time I could stop as soon as this happens and just vent off but that's difficult at 0430 in the morning.
 

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Clutch springs are something I'd not considered, 32 year old springs will have lost there tension, any slight slipping friction would increase the heat at the contact point of the operating arm transferring it to the clutch fluid.
As a temporary measure I may try to fabricate some form of air scoop as suggested, the hack is hung on the left side and I have stainless Motad exhausts fitted so the heat from them can be quite high in any dead air zones. just been for a short ride to gas her up and all is well, come Friday I have anther 150 mile trip to make however the hills are not as steep in the reverse direction so I'm not expecting any issues this time.


There is a 90 deg right hand bend at one of the gear change points, I take the corner at around 55-60mph, but as the master cylinder is full and the bike remains upright, I can't see that the delivery hole in the master would be uncovered, the air is always at the slave cylinder end, right at the bleed nipple. If I had the time I could stop as soon as this happens and just vent off but that's difficult at 0430 in the morning.
You got a weird one there Buddy. I will bet dollars to doughnuts it is not associated with a mechanical clutch issue. It is my opinion that no matter what the clutch itself was doing it could not get the brake fluid up to 400 degrees. The only thing that makes any kind of sense (any kind) is that somehow the exhaust is heating the fluid. If so something as simple as a V-shaped piece of stainless mounted pointy part down would make the heat move around the slave. Remember, with the hack on the bike,climbing hills there will be a lot more exhaust temp than just the bike. If the hack blocks airflow somehow then it just gets worse. It wouldn't take much to just cobble a crappie shield just to test the theory. I would never go back to the mechanical cable if at all possible.
The more I think about it the more I am sure the clutch slipping over heating the slave makes no sense. It would have to overheat the engine oil first and by then you would be walking. At 400 degrees the oil would give up. If something is heating up the fluid it has to be related to the exhaust. It is the only thing that gets above 400 degrees. IMHO :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
That's where I am with it as well. I do have a few hills to climb on Friday which will be in daylight and I have no reason to rush, so will stop after one of these steeper hills and try a 'careful' touch test just to see if things are warming up. If this is the case I'll see if I have any ally or Perspex in my man-cave and fabricate some form or air scoop see if it prevents this problem happening the next trip this way.
 
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That's where I am with it as well. I do have a few hills to climb on Friday which will be in daylight and I have no reason to rush, so will stop after one of these steeper hills and try a 'careful' touch test just to see if things are warming up. If this is the case I'll see if I have any ally or Perspex in my man-cave and fabricate some form or air scoop see if it prevents this problem happening the next trip this way.
I think the scoop is a good idea but I think the heat shield as well. I'm assuming speeds get pretty slow at the steepest part so not much air moving through the scoop. At the same time the exhaust is giving off the most heat. That is why I think both might be a good deal. It ain't gotta be fancy.. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Thanks for that, a picture paints a thousand words!
 

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Have you checked the small bleed back hole in the resorvoir,my 1500 would slip the clutch and I could bleed the clutch and it would be fine and when I pulled out to pass and twist the throttle the clutch would slip,Dave suggested to check that hole and it was plugged.cleaned it and all is fine.
 

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These are the clutch springs I was referring too.


These particular ones were out of my 82a. Turned out that the clutch plates were fine (but I did replace them) and the problem qA these springs. They were replace as well. The actual clutch plates had very very little wear on them. I was very surprised.


I had noticed a little slipping on it towards the late end of the season and did the work over the winter if memory serves me.

This may or may not help you. Now that I have played this scenario out in my minds eye a few times, it would be unlikely that this would be your heat source. I just wanted to clarify what springs I was referring too.


I would remove and clean the slave cylinder as it only takes a few minutes. You get to check it out and see if there are issues in it and then I would insulate it from the heat somehow. Also you would want to play attention to the hydraulic line going down to the slave. that will need to be wrapped or protected as well.


Tim
 

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In my opinion the heat would not be so high for a dot4 fluid to boil up. We should not confuse the heat in a brake fluid with the heat in a clutch.

There might be enormous amount of friction in a brake pad and caliper but not in a clutch I believe.

And in addition to that, any heat built up in the clutch will be absorbed by the engine oil and the cooling system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
This has turned into a really interesting problem.
Lots of good information and things that I need to look at,
Mr Magic Fingers yes those are the springs I was thinking of as well, but as the reminder from redwing52 (thanks because even I was getting drawn in and its my bikes issue!) there is no evidence of clutch slipping the revs remain where I would expect them and if the clutch was heating up, I guess the engine oil would change colour and smell, the coolant temp may rise, but the oil has stayed golden and the coolant temp sits at normal (50%).


Pure Texas, when I last renewed the fluid I did clean out the master, but that's not say something hasn't worked its way in there since, so when I get back to base I will soak out the fluid and give the master a good clean, Thanks for that Tip.


Having rebuilt the slave cylinder on the Interstate with new seals and the engine being out, If I get time I may just swap them over see if it makes a difference, but first, I think temperature monitoring and a heat shield seem like a simple practical solution to try,


starting to wonder why I have not logged on for so long now thanks for reminding me why I joined this forum in the first place!
I'll let you know how I get on.
 

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This has turned into a really interesting problem.
Lots of good information and things that I need to look at,
Mr Magic Fingers yes those are the springs I was thinking of as well, but as the reminder from redwing52 (thanks because even I was getting drawn in and its my bikes issue!) there is no evidence of clutch slipping the revs remain where I would expect them and if the clutch was heating up, I guess the engine oil would change colour and smell, the coolant temp may rise, but the oil has stayed golden and the coolant temp sits at normal (50%).


Pure Texas, when I last renewed the fluid I did clean out the master, but that's not say something hasn't worked its way in there since, so when I get back to base I will soak out the fluid and give the master a good clean, Thanks for that Tip.


Having rebuilt the slave cylinder on the Interstate with new seals and the engine being out, If I get time I may just swap them over see if it makes a difference, but first, I think temperature monitoring and a heat shield seem like a simple practical solution to try,


starting to wonder why I have not logged on for so long now thanks for reminding me why I joined this forum in the first place!
I'll let you know how I get on.
Cleaning the reservoir is good but unde a shiny cap inside the resorvoir is a very tiny hole that gets plugged,it's the return vent hole.it gets air into the line somehow.
 
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Air doesn't travel down in the system so lets forget about the master cylinder.
Ken,
I took a hydraulics class one time and the same question came up there. How can a pump cavitate when the inlet is covered with oil. Instructors best answer was that is is not air. Just think of it as absence of fluid. Seems all fluids have some common air dissolved within itself. You can see it in the clear fuel filter when the fluid (gas) flows through it or a sediment bowl. I know it's weird and unlikely...but so is the problem.
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...v=2&ie=UTF-8#q=common+air+dissolved+in+fluids
 

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Cleaning the reservoir is good but unde a shiny cap inside the resorvoir is a very tiny hole that gets plugged,it's the return vent hole.it gets air into the line somehow.
if it is not slipping. then wont be the spring i posted proly like most have said clean hole i might be one of the hoses.they come apart on the inside some times.
 

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Cleaning the reservoir is good but unde a shiny cap inside the resorvoir is a very tiny hole that gets plugged,it's the return vent hole.it gets air into the line somehow.
No, it will not cause air in the line. What it will cause is the clutch to slip when it gets hot, not the problem here.
 

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He is saying that his master cylinder is loosing pressure.

I believe that if he has cleaned and replaced the seals in both his master, and slave cylinders, including the seal in the motor, the only other explanation is a worn, or damaged, master, or possibly slave.

I have seen sidecar-packin' GL1200s climb significant extended grades, fast and slow, in 115 degree heat, and not have a problem. I just don't believe over heating is the issue here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Well, rode the combi back to base but due to heavy traffic on the main routes, took the more scenic coast roads. Plenty of gear changes and some short steep climbs, speed anywhere between 35-60mph.
No issues with the clutch for the entire journey.
So after stopping and leaving the bike to settle for a few minutes, I tried the 'touch test' the engine clutch housing were warm as expected, so reached in and..........burnt my fingers on the slave cylinder ouch!
looking at the exhaust, the cross piece for the Motad sits not to far away and with the sidecar being quite close for the narrow lanes and so called 'A' roads in this country which may prevent the air circulating as it would without the hack. I think I do have a localised heating issue, I will try to get hold of a remote temp monitor so I can see this in real time when riding.

picky of how close the hack is fitted
 
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