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Just got a set of Iridium spark plugs for my 86 Aspy. Was wondering if the gap should be set the same as for standard plugs. Seem to recall seeing somewhere that the gap should be .036 for Iridium's.



Thanks
 

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035 is typical for all sorts of spark plugs. The ignition system on that vehicle, if in good working order, will handle up to 0.070." Id save my $$ and buy Autolite 4163's. Gap them at 45 and cut the ground electrode back half way and watch what happens:cool:
 

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I hate having to waste my time correcting you Dave Campbell, so instead of doing so I will ask you a few questions and examine your answers. Since you are a Goldwing guru these questions will be easy for you.

1-Why is an Irridium spark plug better than a regular spark plug?

2-How much voltage is required to arc a .035" gap or a .070" gap?

3-What happens to the ignition system when the gap is set too wide?

4-What are the detriments of unshielding the positive electrode when exposed to high compression and rich fuel mixtures, after cutting off half of the ground electrode?

5-Why do spark plug manufacturers discourage changing spark plug gapby no more than .006", open or closed?

I think that we, as Goldwing gurus, owe it to others to give only reliable expert information to those who struggle to grasp the basics of Gold Wing repair and maintenance, otherwise we should hold our tongues. Unless, of course, we are only here to have fun and waste time.

If I am out of line then please tell me so, but, I take giving accurate advice very seriously and do not want to see any Gold Wing owner mislead by off the cuff statements that could lead to the detriment of their machine.


Vic
 

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Halfway to where it's welded to the Plug? What'll happen?
 

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Vic, why the defensive reaction? Id think if youre truly interested in Goldwinging and possible learning something, and helping others improve their motorcycles, you wouldask more questions and possibly offer to go test my advice.

My advice is based on a great number of years doing exactly what my advice was on every motorcycle and auto I've wrenched. My advice is from tests, especially on GL1200s and supported by the following references:

1.)Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE, of which I am a Member) paper 2000-01-1210, A Study of Effects of Spark Plug Electrode Design on 4-Cycle Spark-Ignition Engine Performance , Y.G. Lee et al, investigating cyclic variations in combustion due to spark plug electrode configuration, indexing, tip geometry etc. If you are a SAE member, you can get the Paper and find my advice hidden within. My advice was 5-10 years ahead of the times;it's now current lean burn, stratified charge engine technology.

2.) Internal Combustion Engines, Lichty et. al Yale University (Masterslevel text)

3.)Two (rare) electrical arc physics textbooks on the PhD level on arc-streamer formation related tospark -avalanche phenomenon.

4.) A former Chemistry instructor/ research chemist at one of the U.S. Federal Research Laboratories (Battelle), but you can't have his name.

5.) Go to my website and listen to the 2 stroke audio running on the new ignition system I designed. Itll hold a 0.110" + spark plug gap at Top Dead Center and emits more spark current that a MSD Pro - 44 Top Fuel magneto. Im out here "doing and testing", what are you doing?

6.) My engineering contacts at the Autolite (Honeywell) plant in Fostoria, Ohio to whom I can direct specific questions about Autolite spark plugs and their design.

7.) My research is published by the American Goldwing Association, 1992 - 1995 where I served as National Technical Director and wrote Technical articles on GL 1200 tuning and repairs. If you look those articles up, youll find this very advice published.

8.) Training in engine building and tuning by a former Top Fuel (6000 h.p blown nitromethane funny car) mechanic that worked for Kenny Bernstein in 1984.

9.) Ill add to that list (ex post facto) a few individuals on this BBS to TEST my advice and come back and tell us how it goes. Any takers? Anyone wanna learn how to set an ignition system up for the drag strip?

Thats only part of the list.

Vic, if you intend to challenge me, you need to address specific statements I've made, and back your rebuttal up with evidence. Quote a point Ive made, then state the evidence that proves its wrong. Askingquestions that are off-topic as cloaked accusations is not acceptable.



Its about science.
 

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33zip wrote:
Halfway to where it's welded to the Plug? What'll happen?
See the drawing ( I hope it works.) The Iridium is already cut part-way back and has a narrow center electrode, it basically doesnt need to be modified.

The Autolite4163 has a narrow center electrode, and cutting the ground strap back to make a sharp knife edge against the sharp circumference of the center electrode gives much better firing, plus the ground electrode is less likely to prevent the ball of flame that the spark causes to "quench" or go out. Youll get the same or better performance for a lot less money.

What happens is that in a stock spark plug, the spark sets off a small "flame kernel" between/beside the spark plug electrodes. This "kernel" is very small and must make it away from the ground electrode before the ground electrode can suck the heat out of it. Then it has to move to ignite the rest of the air/fuel mixture. If the ground electrode is in the way, theres a good chance the kernel wont survive.

All: Heres a link to the NGK website so's you can have a look at an "Iridium."

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/cars_trucks_suvs/iridiumix.asp?nav=11420&country=US

have a close look at the ground strap. Its receded and tapered on the sides, along with a narrow center electrode, to confine the spark arc to a narrow passage that jumps to sharp points (edges). It takes much less spark voltage to jump across sharp points than flat ones, so the typical weak stock ignition appears to work better.
 

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Dave is right about the plugs. Guys looking for performance edge do this with spark plugs. Makes for more efficient use of the spark. The plugs don't last as long of course, but who cares when performance is what matters? The iridium plugs do last longer because the material is harder than a stock plug and won't wear down as quick.
 

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Dave Campbell wrote:
Vic, why the defensive reaction? Id think if you're truly interested in Goldwinging and possible learning something, and helping others improve their motorcycles, you wouldask more questions and possibly offer to go test my advice.

Dave I think you have to consider that not everyone has your level of insight, asking a lesser mortal to start grinding plugs is asking for trouble I reckon. I am a lesser mortal who would just buya set of iridium plugs and set them them to .35 gap. They are reckoned to last 120,000 miles so will be the last set of plugs I will need to buy.

Goldwinger1984 is absolutely correct in his point that you don't appear to coat your ground down plugs with Iridium.

Iridium is a precious, silver-white metal and one of the densest materials found on earth. The natural properties of Iridium resultin spark plugs that require less voltage to spark, burns fuel more efficiently, sparks at leaner air/fuel mixtures, and delivers higher horsepower and better gas mileage.

What you can and can't do in an experimental scientific manner with a grinder and a degree is irrelevant to the original question what should the gap be set to?

Thanks

BB

BTW just out of interest I note your reply on my purge valve problem was just plain wrong, and you have not followed up on my attempts to explain more clearly what is happening.
 

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Vic - exactly, itsbeen done since the 1930's in airplane engines and it works.

Plug gap is not just a distance.

The SAE papercited proves that gap position is veryimportant in getting a good, repeatable spark - kernel. If guys werent out to improve the spark plug performance, they wouldnt be trying these expensive new spark plugs (like the Splitfire, whichwas a Patent gimmick) to see whathappens. Moving the gap to the side (so sharp edges align,) has the effect of shortening the electrical gap, while maintaing the physical one - sparkjumps more reliably.

33zip - The "recommended plug gap" is the proverbial "dog chasing its tail". Heres how it goes.

The vehicle manufacturer telephones the spark plug manufacturerto make a spark plug for a (Goldwing, whatever engine). The vehicle manufacturer contracts out the design and production of the ignition system. Now we got 3 mega corporations involved.

All 3 corporations need to have the spark plug work as reliably as possible for as many customers (you and I) as possible, or warranty claims go through the roof and the blame game starts ( all 3 blaming each other for poor engine performance, sort of like the blame game going on in this thread).

The spark plug mfgr and engine mfgr set the typical gap at 0.035 because thats a setting thats been used for many years, and it works on all engines, including the older ones with crappy ignition systems like Honda put on the Goldwings.

Its a matter of statistics, not individual performance.

Recently, state of the art in spark plugs is a narrow center, recessed ground, catalyst tip plug with wide gap for the new lean burn, stratified charge engines being developed for low emissions and high performance.

Fortunately, any spark plug can be made to do much of that if its modified as per the drawing above, at much less cost. Any except Champions, that is.


Bart,I did look carefully at the spark plugs and didnt notice what purge valves had to do with them. Missed that on the NGK website. Sorry, I must not be looking well.:(
If youve any evidence as to whats wrong with your purge valve, Id recommend posting it in the purge valve thread. I looked, its not there.



Cant you just feel the love?/
 

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Well, this has been interesting to say the least. You're all very knowledgeable and I appreciate all the advice and feel that I'm a little better educated about spark plugs and related systems.

Since I've allreadygot the Iridium's, I'm going to gap them at .035 and install them. Then I'm going to move on to solving the other problems that I purchased with the bike.



Thanks again.
 

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Dave Campbell, as a gentleman, I have asked you to email me privately so that I would not have to point out errors in your posts publicly, but, you did not respond to my request.

My post was not meant to attack you, but, simply a request for point form answers to the questions I posed so that folks with lesser skills would be able to comprehend, very easily, all of the technical aspects that are critical to the day to day operation of their Gold Wings. I still don't see a direct, concise,reply to my questions.

You and I may be able to get into the advantages of flame fronts, fuel burn rates, indexing spark plugs, reconfiguring plug electrodes, swirl technology and vortexes and on and on, but, guys here (and I could be very wrong about this) generally are looking for direct, accurate, no nonsense answers that they can easily apply to make a difference on their machines. We, as gurus,can easily mislead them into false beliefs about Gold Wing maintenance and repair (or am I making too big a deal of this?) I think we should be helping, not confusing the guys here.

I am inviting you out to a Pal Talk Gold Wing meeting that I hold every Wednesday at 10 P.M. eastern (Detroit)time. We are currently working on setting up an EFI system for the four cylinder Wings, but, all Gold Wing tech topics are open for conversation. The guys here are very experienced with high performance, high tech and generally anything that can be done to improve a Gold Wing including cutting up the frames and reconfiguring the entire bike. We correct each other if our theories are wrong and then report results of theory application afterwards. This would be a great place for someone like you to come out and fantasize wildly about internal combustion engines. We also laugh and have fun as well, but, it is sometimes very deeply technical and most of us can sniff out B.S. as it's occuring and we'll straighten one another out if necessary.

http://www.paltalk.com is the download, once you have it on your computer go to a Pal help room and get it set up (you need a cheap mic to talk) I will have the Pal Talk room open at 10 P.M. eastern time, just look for the room called Back Yard Built Gold Wings Bar and Grille in the Miscellaneous category.

If you need further assistance please email me at [email protected].


Ride safe, Vic G.W.R.R.A. Ontario, Canada, Classic Wings SIG representative

P.S.I should mention that mypassion is to keep Gold Wings running inexpensively,down the road reliably and safely for as long as possible. I believe that with accurate andreliable maintenance our Gold Wings will treat us well for many, many years to come.
 

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You win Dave Campbell.

Regarding G.W.R.R.A., I am a member of that organization because of the wonderful people and the benefits they offer,not for the politics. Any G.W.R.R.A. member that I find to be arrogant I walk away from. I, personally,only associate with G.W.R.R.A. members who are caring, considerate and never judgemental. Too bad you had encounters with the 1% type of G.W.R.R.A. members that choose to appear to be better than everyone else and know more than anyone else, but, unfortunately there are bad apples in every crowd.

Regarding your stated challenge; I don't see one. I'm only here to help, not to glorify myself.

And I still don't see any answers to my questions and that's the saddest part of all.

Have a wonderful day Dave Campbell.

Vic
 

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Goldwinger1984 wrote:
You win Dave Campbell. You know everything and I know nothing. You are the king of Gold Wings and you are never wrong about anything.
Why thank you. I appreciate the compliment, See we all can get along! :waving:

If you wish answers to questions, start a thread. This ones about answering another individuals questions. Post them publically in another thread and Ill dig out the physics books.
 

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I wish to apologize to everyone at this wonderful site for questioning another guru's post to the point that it appears that it has almost become a flame issue.

I have always felt that this site is very important to me due to its extremely accurate information and gentlemanly behavior in all the posts.

Perhaps, I am taking the guru's positiona little too responsibly by insisting on accurate and reliable maintenance and repair procedures that we can rely on. Everyone is entitled to their opinion wether they are right or they are wrong.

Therefore, I will drop this matter at this point and move on to other issues.

Vic
 

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I have read all this with intrest and well done to both of you ,:clapper::clapper:,as you say this site is an excellent site and is here to help each other and to promote the goldwing all around the world ,,We speak honest and frank nere ,,But most of all we keep it simple and that is the winning formula here ,,no pop ups ,no advertisments ,and no smut ,:clapper:

But a healthy discussion will always be welcome ,,,How many of us have asked questions here and have had our problems sorted out within hours ,,and FREE,without the need to go to a motorbike shop and pay over the odds prices for repairs ,just because it is a wing ,,,

And just to all know the only thing that this site has in common with any goldwing club or site anywhere in the world is the GOLDWING ,,this is a non profit making site and is financed by STEVE SAUNDERS and any other contributions that he receives through the site ,,,,Steve got this site going just from his love for the WING and to share his knowledgewith other wingers the world over ..

So I say keep up the good work and remember everybody is entitled to their opinion and point of view whether we agree or disagree with it ,is up to ourselves ,Cheers Ciaran:waving:
 

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Vic & Dave,
I follow your posts with great interest, you both have a great deal of knowledge to share and I'd say allof us here appreciate it. The ways in which we all express ourselves when helping out with answering questions here will all be different, after all we all write differently. I'd hate to see anyone stop posting because they were afraid it would be interpreted wrong, so keep up the good work lads. :clapper:
 

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I was one of the peole that asked the moderator to make Dave a guru. I know it doesn't mean much but it makes all the fine knowledgable people here stand out from the rest of us. Also of course it annoys the hell out of Redwing as he's been begging for guru for months! :p
 

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:clapper:

Well said Dave, as a master mechanic with over 30 years experience, I agree. I have also "played with plugs" and yes it works. A person can even index them to get just a little more out their engine. I have done this back when I raced, I have raced Jr.fuel dragsters, pro stock and also a funny car. Your advice is good! :clapper:
 
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Hey Wingnut if you read this, :gunhead: I wish to withdraw my application for "Guru" immediately. :crying: After reading some of the previous posts it really has scared the s*** out of me :baffled: i just dont know which way to run. :stumped:I think i will just sit back and read mesgs from now on. :crying:

:( :18red: :(
 

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Now now children play nice ;). I kinda of like the kidding Redwing (and many otherstake - all in good fun - hey redwing PLEASE do not stop with the advice - Us novices really need it and appreciate it. I am used to a basic motorcycle -these goldwings are more complicated than many of the cars I have driven.
 
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