[Bike...and Dennis]

I agree that the function of the shaft seal is to keep the drive oil from leaving the drive, and those holes are to lube the splines on the shaft. I don't understand why the Honda engineers designed the system that way but they must have had a reason.

I went through a couple of pinion seals and don't recall the oil ever working its way up the shaft. It pooled at the back of the tube and dripped, spread or whatever. When I first noticed, I thought the shock was leaking.

If you look at the pic, the oil is coming from outside the shaft cavity. I think it just gets thrown off of the surface and may occasionally drip on the shaft, but surely not enough to travel forward to the u-joint area.

 

[redwing52]

redwing52. I don't know what your problem is, or why you are so contrary to my posts. But you are wrong. From the factory, there is no lube at the rear of the driveline. Moly paste is something we add upon reassembly. There is no need to vent there, as the the final drive already has a vent. I don't post with "maybes" and "I don't think so's". I make statements based on experience. If you'd had one apart, you'd know that seal #29 fits directly into the pinion flange, preventing gear lube from traveling up the driveshaft. You may disagree all you want, but facts is facts.

Certainly didn't mean anything personally. Just didn't want to see the OP do the job twice. Yes, I have had more than one apart and the last one was about a year ago. If you click on the link below you will notice I started a post at that time regarding the holes. There are some pretty knowledgeable people who posted that do not agree with you. Many Wing owners have had spline failures with low mileage. My 2000 only had 45K and the pinion seal failed. My experience is that the odds are if the final is leaking it is much more likely the pinion seal has failed. The reason I say this is because the seal on the shaft is stationary. It never moves in relation to the shaft. It basically sits still in relation to the shaft. Why would it fail as compared to the pinion seal which is constantly contacting a spinning coupler.

I certainly didn't realize I was being contrary to your posts. There have been time I did not agree with all kinds of people. Unfortunately most of the time I was wrong. I know that is how I learn and I hope others who read the posts learn as well. I think the purpose of the forum is to help each other do repairs right the first time and learn more about the bikes. I don't like to speak in absolutes. I believe some find this offensive and I have learned that even though I feel like I know a lot about the bikes I certainly will learn more from the guys here. No offense meant toward you. I didn't think I was being contrary. Maybe just not agreeing. Hopefully you understand better now that you know my thoughts and reasons. I will still bet you a beer the pinion seal is the culprit if it is a seal. Also the bearing on my 2000 was loose which certainly could have been the root cause.

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums...ldwing-technical-forum/644153-gear-oil-lubes-driveshaft-spline-final-drive.html

 

[Rednaxs60]

1200 and 1500 FD assemblies are virtually the same at the pinion bearing end.

The 1200 FD pinion joint has two holes in it from the factory - see attachment. This pinion joint is attached to the FD pinion shaft. There is an oil seal P/N 34 that keeps the FD oil in the FD because the pinion bearing is lubricated by FD oil, and the pinion joint fits onto the pinion shaft and past the prop shaft oil seal - see attachment - P/N 34. Had the FD apart to replace the pinion bearing.

My bike had never had the prop shaft out in 115K Kms, or the person that did the maintenance did not remove the retaining spring as detailed in the OEM service manual - see attachment - oil seal P/N 29. Not knowing which occurred, the splines are in very good shape after 115K KMs. If the prop shaft was never taken out, there had to be lubrication from somewhere, in this case it was wet with FD oil. When I removed the prop shaft from the FD and checked the pinion shaft for "play", I could move the pinion shaft about 1/32" - new pinion bearing required, and the reason for taking the FD apart. Replaced the oil seal P/N 34 as well. Even with excessive play in the pinion bearing the oil seal (P/N 34) did not fail and allow FD oil to flow past the pinion joint sealing face.

I have attached a picture of the new pinion bearing installed in the FD. The attachment showing the pinion retainer and FD oil seal show the final installation before the pinon joint is attached. I do not have a picture of how the pinion joint mates with the pinion shaft and against the pinion bearing, but since there are holes in the pinion joint, and the pinion joint does not have a sealing fit against the pinion bearing, no reason why FD oil cannot get into the pinion joint cavity providing lubrication to the splines.

When I reinstalled the FD after this maintenance, I used Moly paste on the prop shaft splines that fit into the FD. Next time I removed the FD, always drain the FD to keep from making a mess, the FD oil was gray and had mixed with the moly paste. I have since changed the FD oil several times, do not put any Moly paste or grease on the prop shaft splines that fit into the FD, and every time I remove the FD for maintenance and remove the prop shaft from the FD, it is coated with FD oil. The holes in the pinion joint allow FD oil into the prop shaft cavity. If the vent on the FD is working correctly, there will be no pressure in the pinion joint cavity, ergo the prop shaft oil seal, and it is called an oil seal by Honda, will not move.

If the FD vent is plugged and/or not working properly, it is possible that FD oil could be forced out past the prop shaft oil seal - how far it would travel is an unknown. Moly paste could be as well if used but because of the consistency of moly paste, highly unlikely it would travel too far up the swing arm tube, and leak out like an oil per say. The FD oil could also be forced out past the pinion bearing oil seal, but the design of the oil seal is such that when installed correctly, the shape of the sealing face is supposed to resist any leakage.

I would think there would be a fair bit of pressure build up to force oil past an oil seal.

Hopefully, oil seal P/N 34 is not the issue. Pain getting the pinion bearing retainer out. Not easy to identify it as leaking either.

As has been mentioned, can't say what the Honda engineers' intent for the holes in the pinion joint are, but can attest to what I have observed on my bike.

Just my thoughts and observations.

Cheers

 

[redwing52]

1200 and 1500 FD assemblies are virtually the same at the pinion bearing end.

The 1200 FD pinion joint has two holes in it from the factory - see attachment. This pinion joint is attached to the FD pinion shaft. There is an oil seal P/N 34 that keeps the FD oil in the FD because the pinion bearing is lubricated by FD oil, and the pinion joint fits onto the pinion shaft and past the prop shaft oil seal - see attachment - P/N 34. Had the FD apart to replace the pinion bearing.

My bike had never had the prop shaft out in 115K Kms, or the person that did the maintenance did not remove the retaining spring as detailed in the OEM service manual - see attachment - oil seal P/N 29. Not knowing which occurred, the splines are in very good shape after 115K KMs. If the prop shaft was never taken out, there had to be lubrication from somewhere, in this case it was wet with FD oil. When I removed the prop shaft from the FD and checked the pinion shaft for "play", I could move the pinion shaft about 1/32" - new pinion bearing required, and the reason for taking the FD apart. Replaced the oil seal P/N 34 as well. Even with excessive play in the pinion bearing the oil seal (P/N 34) did not fail and allow FD oil to flow past the pinion joint sealing face.

I have attached a picture of the new pinion bearing installed in the FD. The attachment showing the pinion retainer and FD oil seal show the final installation before the pinon joint is attached. I do not have a picture of how the pinion joint mates with the pinion shaft and against the pinion bearing, but since there are holes in the pinion joint, and the pinion joint does not have a sealing fit against the pinion bearing, no reason why FD oil cannot get into the pinion joint cavity providing lubrication to the splines.

When I reinstalled the FD after this maintenance, I used Moly paste on the prop shaft splines that fit into the FD. Next time I removed the FD, always drain the FD to keep from making a mess, the FD oil was gray and had mixed with the moly paste. I have since changed the FD oil several times, do not put any Moly paste or grease on the prop shaft splines that fit into the FD, and every time I remove the FD for maintenance and remove the prop shaft from the FD, it is coated with FD oil. The holes in the pinion joint allow FD oil into the prop shaft cavity. If the vent on the FD is working correctly, there will be no pressure in the pinion joint cavity, ergo the prop shaft oil seal, and it is called an oil seal by Honda, will not move.

If the FD vent is plugged and/or not working properly, it is possible that FD oil could be forced out past the prop shaft oil seal - how far it would travel is an unknown. Moly paste could be as well if used but because of the consistency of moly paste, highly unlikely it would travel too far up the swing arm tube, and leak out like an oil per say. The FD oil could also be forced out past the pinion bearing oil seal, but the design of the oil seal is such that when installed correctly, the shape of the sealing face is supposed to resist any leakage.

I would think there would be a fair bit of pressure build up to force oil past an oil seal.

Hopefully, oil seal P/N 34 is not the issue. Pain getting the pinion bearing retainer out. Not easy to identify it as leaking either.

As has been mentioned, can't say what the Honda engineers' intent for the holes in the pinion joint are, but can attest to what I have observed on my bike.

Just my thoughts and observations.

Cheers

I have no idea what to think. It seems different people have different experience related to the holes. If you look at the attached picture notice the shinny part where the drive coupler is tightened against the bearing inner race. By doing so it blocks off most of the hole. Add to that the only oil that is available to the hole is what can travel up the spline which is blocked from the oil completely. As you can see in post #22 many members have theories. Right now I'm just baffled.

As I look closer at the coupler picture there seems there might be a very small area that could be open too oil. It might just be coincidence or maybe by design?

 

[Rednaxs60]

redwing52 - lots of theories and personal experiences out there regardless of the topic/issue. Short of having the information from Honda, the best anyone can do is what works for them. On page 11-17 of the OEM service manual it mentions to lubricate the drive shaft splines (plural) and oil seal with Honda Moly 45. This to me is to use Moly paste on the splines, both ends. My personal experience has indicated that there is FD oil getting to the prop shaft, yours may differ. Can't go wrong following the OEM service manual. I take my FD and prop shaft out at least once a year, more if other maintenance is required. If the situation changes I will change with it.

Cheers

 

[redwing52]

Ernest,
I agree with you completely. I can't for the life of me figure this out. Even the service manuals don't agree with each other. Some say use grease while others say use Moly paste. I think whatever Honda hoped for did not work. Then they went to plan "B." That is lube it during maintenance. The last one I did I lubed with grease. Sold the bike so I will probably never know any results though I bet it will be fine. I agree the Moly is a better choice and I will use that from now on. It is wonderful stuff but it has a price that goes with it.

 

[Ddraayer]

Thanks so much for all the replies.
Is there anyway to rule out the vent? As mentioned I tried prying on it but it didn't seem to move much. Most vents I've seen can be unscrewed but this one looks pressed in or something. Is there anyway to remove it without disassembling of the final drive? A little more history on this bike. I got it a year ago this month and it has about 33K miles on it. I swapped out the timing belt, changed the oil and general maintenance. It ran great for several months then one day I noticed some gear oil. The previous owner was storing it for a friend that died and he would start it every so often to keep things fresh, but I don't think it got ridden much. Does that give any more clues? Any ideas on the vent to rule that out? Thanks again.

 

[redwing52]

As foor your descrription of the bikes history I see nothing that would indicate an issue related to your problem/ Many Wings sit for years with no final drive issues once put back in service.
Though a little crude I would check the vent by putting a hose in the oil filler hole. Pack a rag or plastic to seal the hose to the outside diameter of the hole. Now blow in the hose and see if air (your breath) comes out of the breather. It should of course. If you don't want to blow on the hose you could use miniscule air pressure from a compressor. Don't use over one or two PSI if you use a compressor.

 

[Bike...and Dennis]

:grin3: If you want to unplug it, you can put the garden hose in there and turn it on full blast. That should clear any obstructions. >

 

[CWN]

Honda had a service bulletin on installing the pinion shaft seal the correct way that I posted on some years back. The rear end oil also leaks out the front L/R side front swing arm gusset areas that were not welded in spots as I found on my 86 A.

 

[Ddraayer]

Fixing my leaking final drive finally made it to the top of my to do list. The part the screwdriver is touching, is that the part that yall think is the bugger making it leak? I assume I need to remove the spring at the end of the shaft and slide the new gasket/ring in place?
Thanks,

 

[CWN]

Yes and honda issued a bulletin on the seal to insure it's installed properly. Lube the outer edges and make sure the outer lip doesn't fold back sliding it in.

 

[Ddraayer]

Thanks. Do I lube it with gear oil or something else? I thought this was going to be a major repair but if replacing this does the trick I'll be so happy.

 

[redwing52]

If you secure the final drive in a vice protecting it with rags etc. you should be able to remove the driveshaft from the final drive. Pull out on the driveshaft while roatating and ricking side to side. It will work right out. If there is not gear oil in the coupler/shaft area that is not your leak. You might find Moly paste. Thick (super thick) black pasty lube. Some use grease in there. I use Moly but either way, if there is no gear grease you have not found your leak. Good luck. Hope you do. If not it is not that much harder to change the pinion seal. You're almost there. Keep us informed.

 

[Ddraayer]

The driveshaft came out with no problem (did it come out too easy?) There is gear oil all in housing that the drive shaft is in so oil is getting past this seal I'm replacing. I have thought about some bearing grease around the seal I'm replacing but didn't know if that was a good idea or not.

 

[Bellboy40]

It sounds to me like you are on the right track to fixing the leak. I think about any kind of lube would work for installing the seal. The bearing grease or just some rear drive oil. It just needs to have some lube so it will slip into place without damage.

 

[glhonda]

You've got the final drive out. You should be lubricating the final drive with moly paste when you reassemble. Pack some moly paste in the housing before installing the drive line as recommended previously.

 

[Ddraayer]

I reinstalled the washer unit (when I pulled the drive line out, that washer unit was on the shaft but not slid tight on the end) I'm ready to put it all back together but that shaft doesn't seem to be going in all the way. I can see the hole it should fit into and I think I'm in the hole. I tested this by putting it in the hole, putting the bike in neutral and the shaft would turn. I then put the bike in gear and the shaft won't turn. I know there is a spring on the end of that shaft that needs to be pushed in but I'm pushing with all I have and I can't get the four bolts through the holes to put the nuts on. What am I doing wrong??

 

[Bike...and Dennis]

You're not fully seated in the u-joint. Sometimes it helps to have someone lift up on the joint while you fiddle with the shaft.

 

[Ddraayer]

Getting the shaft back in the U-Joint is kicking my butt. I've fought with it for a few hours now and no luck. I pulled the front part of the rubber housing off to access the u-joint but it doesn't seem to move up or down at all to line it up with the shaft. I've put the bike in neutral, in gear and nothing seems to work. Any tips out there to get the shaft into the u-joint?
Thanks,