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I could not get to sleep this evening, so I thought I would document what I know about thespecialized FI parts on the LTD/SEi and their availability (as of December, 2008). If anyone has more to add and/or corrections (on the slim chanceI could ever be wrong :cheeky1:), please do so.

Hopefully we can eventually put this in the "Reference and FAQ" section so that we can keep this info in one place.

ECU - Engine Control Unit: This is the computer that runs the fuel injection show. It sits under the trunk and there is no substitute for it and new ones are no longer available. Fortunately, I have not heard of many going bad, even as old as they are. If you ever need one, though, they are very expensive. You can get a used one for right now for $500, but if you watch ebay, they come up from time-to-time, but they still go for a lot (always over $100). I have a spare I bought for mine a couple of years ago and I swap them out every few months. The one for the LTD and for the SEi are interchangeable.

Injectors: These are no longer available new from Honda, but I have never seen any forum postings that indicated that one had actually gone bad. They can get dirty, but FI cleaner can usually help that and if not there are professional services that can clean them. I have seen a post or two that alluded to the possibility that some of the mid-80s Honda cars may use the same or similar injectors, but that has not been confirmed.

Fuel Pump: This is no longer available new from Honda. However, the Master (and other brands)E8000 fuel pump is a direct replacement for a little over $100 => http://tinyurl.com/7gg7zx

Fuel Pressure Regulator: I don't think this is available new anymore, but I am not 100% sure. Some have successfully used a replacement from a mid-80s Honda car such as this => http://tinyurl.com/7f79dd , however you would need to bend that tube straight (not as easy as it looks). I am also not sure if the regulated pressure is the same as the LTD/SEi regulator, but it must be at least close if others have used it and it worked for them.

Fuel Filter: I am not sure if this is available from Honda or not anymore. I bought a new one about a year and a half ago, so they were available then. There are substitutes I have read postings about taken from Honda cars, but I don't know specifics of the years/models that will work nor do I know how close the substitutes match the original. Note that the LTD/SEi uses a special filter that is NOT the same as the one from the carbed versions.

Air Valve: This is a valve by the right footpeg that opens up when the engine is cold (engine coolant runs through it) to let air into ports in the intakes to make the engine idle faster when cold. There is also an electric heater in it to make it close down some faster. As far as I know, this is no longer available new from Honda. They are available on ebay from time-to-time, however, and are not extremely expensive. I took mine apart one time and was looking at it and it looks like if it quit working, you might be able to rig it with a cable and a lever on the handlebars to work it manually like a choke. Just a thought.

TPS: Throttle Position Sensor. It tells the computer how far open the throttle is. This is no longer available new from Honda. Frompostings I have read, some of the mid-80s Honda cars used an identical TPS. The problem is that Honda riveted them on to the throttle body (of the car) and only sold the whole thing. But, they quit that (the only reference I saw put it at $600 anyway) and the auto parts stores don't sell the TPS (alone or with the throttle body), so we are out of luck in that respect.

You might be able to find one in an auto junkyard. You can finda usedLTD/SEi TPS from time to time on ebay, but they are typically very expensive. However, Oregonwinger found a substitute from a different Honda car a few years ago. My TPS went bad, so I used his instructions and documented what I did. Mine broke, however (the TPS I bought was junk), but I found an industrial postion sensor that I made work on my LTD. It is working just fine, and only costs about $50 to do. See the "Reference and FAQ" forum for the thread for the TPS (be sure to go all the way to the bottom to get the link for the pdf for the industrial one I built).

PBR and PBL Sensors: "Pressure Boost" left and right sensors. These monitor the vacuum from each cylinder bank and vary a voltage to the ECU based on that vacuum. They sit under the "fake" gas tank. These are no longer available new from Honda, but they do come up from time-to-time on ebay. As far as I know there are no substitutes available. The prices vary. I bought a pair for my LTD for about $30, but I was lucky because no one else was interested at that time. With ebay, you never know who wants what and how badly at any given time. Also, the LTD and SEi boost sensor are identical, but the connectors are different. Wire colors are the same, just connectors are different. I soldered in my LTD connectors onto my SEi sensors.

NS Sensor: This is really a pulse generator that is mounted on the front of the crankshaft behind the cam belt covers. It makes electrical pulses that tell the computer how fast the engine is turning (and I would imagine whether it is speeding up or slowing down). These DO go bad and when they do it is lights-out for your wing. They are no longer available from Honda and used ones are pricey (and dicey since they are known to fail for no reason). The only hope is a gentleman on this board who had posted that he was able to successfully use one from a 1500. I don't recall the thread, but a search would find it.

GR and GL Sensors: These are also pulse generators that run off therear of the right cylinder bank cam. They create pusles that tell the computer the camshaft position. There is one for the right cylinder bank (GR) and one for the left cylinder bank (GL). They both sit on the right bank cam and the GL is simply 180 degrees away from the GR. These are no longer available new from Honda, but they do come up from time-to-time on ebay. Fortunately, I have not seen any postings of them actually going bad. There are no substitutes that I am aware of.

Tw Sensor: This is a variable resistor that monitors the coolant temperature and varies a voltage to the computer. It isstill available new from Honda (I think the same sensor is used on some of the CBR 1000s). Used one are also available on ebay.

Ta Sensor: This is a variable resistor that monitors theair temperature from inside the air box and varies a voltage to the computer. It is not available from Honda, but can be found used on ebay for $20-$30. I replaced mine with one for a Honda CRV (2001). The resistance specs are the same, but the connector was different. I had to get a connector from a junkyard and solder it onto the wire harness, but it and the sensor work fine.

Spark Units: I am not sure if these are different than the carbed versions, but I suspect that they are. I also don't know if they are available new from Honda, but again, I suspect that they are not. There are no substitutes that I know of, but as with just about anything, you can find used ones on ebay.
 

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Paul,

I do not own an LTD but will be going to look at one this coming week. Seems LTDs and SEIs are only thing coming up for sale in my area, I've passed on two others already. Just a curious thought, have you ever researched what the difficulty level would be converting the FI bikes to Carbed? I am not familiar enough with the FI bikes to know whether it would be simple or not. Would the engine block have to be changed or are they the same with only electrical and electronic components different. Of course carbs would have to replace FI intake. What about wiring harness, coils, stator, ignition switch, instrumentation, ect.? I imagine buying a wrecked carbed 1200 would be the easiest way to go if this ever needed to occur. Or would this not be worthwhile and just part the bike out instead? Just some thoughts I've had if a bike was cosmetically and mechanically great, but the electronics craped out.

Rick
 

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Rick,

I don't know anything about converting an LTD/SEi to carbs nor have I read of anyone doing it. However, as we all know, given enough time, effort, and money just about anything is possible.

My opinion is that fitting the carbs themselves would not be a problem. Making it work would be a different matter.

I am not sure if the air box is the same or not, but if it is, you could just take out the intakes that hold the injectors and replace them with the carbs. More than likely, though, the air box is different, so you would have to replace the whole carbs/air box assembly. The frame and engine itself is the same for the carb or FI versions, so that should not be an issue. You would also have to either get a fuel pump from a carbed version or figure out a way to reduce the pressure from the FI 30 psi or so down to a pressure that would not blow past the float needles in the carbs.

The real problem as I see it would be how to get the spark to work if you did away with all of the FI stuff. The signals to the spark units comes from the ECU and it determines when to send those signals based on some or all of those FI sensors. I don't know how you would get the signals to the spark units without all that stuff. If Oregonwinger reads this, I am sure he will have a better idea of the feasibility of this. He knows an awful lot about these FI 1200s.

I think you would be better off just keeping the FI system. I have a feeling that most LTD/SEi ownershave never had to touch any of the FI components I list. I was just trying to provide a list in case anyone had a failure of a specific part.

I personally had all sorts of trouble with my LTD not running right off-idle. It had a flat spot that I could not get rid of. My brother owned it before me and he bought it new and said it always ran like that, so I suspect the problem was a part that was never right from the factory. The TPS was part of the problem, but not all of it. I finally ended up just replacing parts a few at a time (as I would get them at reasonable prices on ebay) until at last I replaced the PBL and PBR, spark units, and coils at one time (this past Friday 12-26-2008, actually). We had 65 degrees Saturday, so I had a chance to ride it all over the place. And, FINALLY itnow runs perfectly, so one of those three things was the problem (I suspect the PBR/PBL sensors).

If you have a FI failure that lights one of the trouble codes on the ECU (it has LEDs that blink if there is a failure), then the fix is pretty easy. You just have to dig up the part or find a substitute, or make one (TPS). The tough problems are the ones like mine where everything tests perfectly, but it still won't run right. Mine was probably one of the most difficult to solve, but I finally did it and I did not know much about FI systems when I got the LTD.

I am quite fussy about having things work properly, so when I say that my LTD now runs perfectly, I do mean perfectly :cooler:. When working properly, FI is hard to beat.

If you are looking at LTDs/SEis, I would be sure to get as much riding time on it as possible before buying it (that is not easy in the winter in Michigan, though). You will be able to tell if the FI is working properly or not. If it is, then you are in good shape, but if not, that is when I would investigate more before buying. If the Fuel System light on and/or LEDs are flashing on the ECU, then it is most likely relatively easy to fix. It is when you get one that does not run right without warning lights that I would tell you to stay away from it.

One other avenue for those of us with the FI 1200s that lose the ECU and/or hard to get sensors is to replace at least the ECU with a "Megasquirt" ( http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html). This would take a lot of work and would require that at least some of the sensors be replaced with ones compatible with it, but I think it would be possible. I don't know of anyone who has done it, though. I would think that going the Megasquirt route would be easier than trying to convert to carbs, though.
 

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Paul,

The conversion was only hypothetical for a worst case scenario. I doubt I'll get the opportunity to test ride a bike until spring. I'm in a search mode right now for a new wing. I can honestly tell you, the Wing bug has bit bad. I would really love to find a cherry low mileage 1100 Aspencade like I had before. I'll find what I want, whether it's an 1100, 1200 or 1500. With the help of the good folks here and others I know, I'll find one. Didn't really care for the fit of an 1800 when I rode one last fall, neither did my wife. I'll just have to be patient.

Rick
 

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I owned a 1985 Aspencade, carbed thankfully. I can't imagine now owning a 1984-1987 1200 Goldwing. They were a 4 year disaster. I couldn't get rid of mine fast enough. The electrical system borrowed from Planet of the Apes. It was replaced by a 98 SE.

To seek out a fuel injected 23 year old motorcycle, pay good money for it, then worry about where parts for it can be had is insanity.

Honda is a good company. They made wonderful pieces of machinery. They also made orphans. Do yourself a favor. Don't buy an orphan.
 

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Nice job Paul... this belongs in the Reference and FAQ as well..
 

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Just found this, Paul. Great job. I might indicate that the TPS is also an "accelerator pump". And, I think the pb sensors from those 80's auto can be used also.

Also, my LTD always had a small flat spot. The electronics of that era just couldn't think fast enough, is my thinking. It's like an 8 bit processor. A 32 bit would be much faster. That's the other issue. What to use for a replacement ecu? One would probably have to convert to Megasquirt, MicroSquirt or a GM Corvette type ecu (727?). That one would be good, as it's pretty well sealed.

Here's a cpl. links if anyone is interested in experimenting.

http://zoic.org/sharkey/moto/efi/links.html

http://www.customefis.com/

http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/

Then, there's MicroSquirt http://www.microsquirt.info/ This one looks the most interesting to me. http://www.microsquirt.info/

I hope this helps at least some.


Thanks, Paul;. I tried to removed that space. It comes back every time. How'd you do it? I notice that happens to others, too. One of the zillions of mysteries of life.
 

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Bob, thanks for the ECU links (the microsquirt on has some spaces or other invisible characters on it that keep it from working - this http://www.microsquirt.infoworks).

Necessity is the mother of invention, and I figure once the ECU supply dwindles to nothing and the price goes astronomical, someone will make one of the alternate ECUs work. As you said, the Microsquirt looks the most promising.

I DID finally get rid of the flat spot in my LTD. If there is still a flat spot there, it is too minor for me to notice it. Let's see, what did I try since early 2006:

1. new fuel filter

2. monitored for correct fuelpressure

3. ranTechronthrough it several times

4. got a replacementECU (the one I bought from you)

5. replaced the NS sensor (I was fortunate to get one of the lastof the newones - wired backwards by Honda, thank you very much)

6. checked every last piece of rubber hose and replaced any that were suspect

7. new air temp sensor

8. new water temp sensor

9. checked all ECU related wiring and cleaned all connectors

10. pulledthrottle body out,cleaned it, replaced reed units for idle air system

11.checkedidle air valve itself

12. replaced TPS with unit built from a BEI-Duncan industrial postion sensor (the old one was bad - had a "dropout" in its resistance)

At that point,it ran a little better (the TPS was part of the problem), but the flat spot was still there. The only good thing was that I was getting nearer to replacing everything FI related on it.

Over time, I bought a set of coils (SEi), spark units (SEi), and Map (PB) sensors (SEi). I had the chance to replace all of these at once when the weather broke here for a bit (late Dec. 2008) and then had a chance to ride it. Flat spot - GONE! It now runs perfectly. So, it must have been one or more of those three things. I suspected it was some part that had a unit for each cyclinder bank (like the coil, spark units, and Map sensors) because it would lose power abruptly, but would still run and then in a second or sopick back up to full power again.

The big problem with trying to fix it was that I never had any LEDs lit on the ECU and every static test in the supplemental manual and every circuit I tested from the electical manual tested out perfectly. I even got hold of an ocsilloscope at one point and tapped into the ECU connector to monitor the voltages and wave forms from there. Everything looked peachy as near as I could tell. It just never would run right. It was always a 'fun' making a left turn with oncoming traffic - just as you would let the clutch out and start your turn, the thing would bog like a scooter carrying a sumo wrestler. I learned to get around that by giving it more gas and slipping the clutch a little - I had to ride the thing like a 125 motocross bike.

Fortunately, it is finally fixed and it is like having a completely different bike. I guess one could blame the trouble I had with it on the fact that it is nearly 24 years old, but I actually suspect the coils, spark units, or Map sensors were not right from the factory when it was originally built.

Weird stuff like this can happen with cars, also. My father in law had a 2000 VW Passat that started throwing bad 02 sensor codes. He took it to the dealer and they replaced the 02 sensor. A hundred miles later, the MIL light came on again, so he took it back to the dealer - they replaced the 02 sensor again! And, essentially said they did not know what was wrong with it. He asked ifI could help (I am not a mechanic, but I will still take a shot at anything less complex than a nuclear submarine). I searched the web and found a http://myvwlemon.com site where there were a lot of posts about bad mass airflow sensors that were causing false 02 error codes. There was a lot of discussion there about whether VW was ignoring the problem and leaving owners hanging or if they were doing some sort of coverup that included the dealers. In any event, I bought a rebuilt MAF for my father in law ($200 gamble) and that solved the problem - he never had a bit of trouble with it after that.

Sorry, got a little off-track there. Anyway, thanks for all of the help you have provided to me and to others on this board over the years. It is very much appreciated.
 

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Glad to help when I can. That's interesting about all those Oxy sensors. Bosch must have flooded the market with a bunch of bad "new" sensors. Seems there's no accountability with these big companmies, these days. Kinda like gov't. No one is responsible, or accountable.
Well, back to my html learning. :? It's slow going, it is. I'm beginning to think it's not my cup of tea. :gunhead:

Again, good job, Paul. I certainly appreciate your input. Be safe, and i hope that you get to feeling better as spring approaches.
 

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Hi Paul, I also have a flat spot off idle. When I take off it hesitates and sometimes I even get a cough out of it. Did your ever have that little hicuup? Funny thing is it is only from a take off. I can be in a higher gear just idleing along and gun it and it has no flat spot at all? Anyone with any ideas?
 

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csmithrc wrote:
Hi Paul, I also have a flat spot off idle. When I take off it hesitates and sometimes I even get a cough out of it. Did your ever have that little hicuup? Funny thing is it is only from a take off. I can be in a higher gear just idleing along and gun it and it has no flat spot at all? Anyone with any ideas?
I am not sure, but what you are describing sounds like the 'classic' hesitation problem the LTD/SEis all have. Mine does what you describe even after it is now 'fixed' - if you crack the trottle with a light load I sometimes get that hesitation for a split second. I don't usually get a cough out of it, but it has happened. I think Bob's explanation was correct - I don't think the FI system can react fast enough under those conditions and it takes it a split second to respond.

I think when you put it in a higher gear and then roll on the throttle you are unkowingly twisting the throttle more which gets past the small throttle opening where the problem occurs.

If what you are describing is the hesitation that they all have, then it is not a bother to me. It is just a minor thing and never affected the driveability of the wing. The other hesitation that I finally fixed on mine was more of a 'bog' where the thing would just lose power for a second or more (which is actuallya long time) and then 'catch' again. It was more than annoying - it was dangerous. I am glad I was finally able to fix it.

The trouble is, unless we could all ride each others wings, we don't know if you problem is the problem they all have or if it is something weird like I had with mine.

There were many times I wished I could have got Bob on an jet from Oregon to Ohio to help me with mine.

If your problem is severe, then you will have to start troubleshooting. The best thing to do is to search this board for anything related to the LTD/SEis and you will find bits and pieces of info to help you.

I would probably startby checking the TPS - if ithas a 'dropout'it can cause a big flat spot. Mine hadone and that was part of my hesitation problem. Beyond that, it takes a lot of trial and error unless you are gettng theFuel System Warning light and/or LEDslit on the ECU.
 

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I own one of Honda orphans with wire from the planet of the apes.It is a 26 year old motorcycle and has it quirks and it is fuel injected but if that is all you can afford you go with that.I have had this bike for just over a year and had to repair and clean and replace stuff due neglect from the former owner.With all this work I found out that the 1200 is a very good bike and it actually had real chrome on it.Does your 1500 have real chrome on it much and has your exaust rusted and frame cracked ? I bet if you put your 1500 up against a LTD or SEI most likely give that 1500 a hard time with it's planet of the apes wiring.I would like to know how many in the forum work on their own bike instead of having Honda work on it for them?Now for all those people that want to bash peoples bikes a very wise and smart man told me something years ago and it goes like this ANYTHING MAN MAKES WILL GIVE TROUBLE and that man was my dad one of the best mechanics around and as I get older what he said is very true and every Goldwing made had problems and recalls you can buy a brand new Goldwing straight off the show room floor and it will give problems.It could have been built on a Monday after a Japaneese Holiday weekend and the guy building it had to much Socki and partied all weekend long can not blame it on the Americans any more Honda the ball is in your court now I just hope you don't screw up a good thing.
 
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