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Read an interesting article recently that compared the risks inherent in motorcycling with those in sky diving and scuba diving.

In short, the writers point was that riding a motorcycle, particualrly a sport bike, carries similar levels of risk to the other sports.

Virtually no one would consider going scuba or sky diving without 1st taking instruction. A similar argument would mandate rider training.

Maybe try this approach next time you're trying to convince a disbeliever that rider training is worthwhile.
 

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It's a good point, but I doubt you'd convert most "disbelievers". Most "disbelievers" have already been riding for some time without taking a course. Non-riders wanting to become riders are fairly easily convinced they need to take a course.

Case in point - I was diving the Florida Keys and was chatting with my assigned dive buddy. In casual conversation I found out he was not certified andhad never had a dive training class. He said, "What do I need a certification for? I've been diving since I was a kid". His training? According to him he was out on the water with his uncle. His uncle strapped a tank to him, put on goggles, fins & a weight belt and threw him in the water.:shock: The guy was a decent dive buddy, stayed with me the whole time I was down, but he must of had gills. I was running low on air about 50 minutes into the dive and let him know I needed to return to the boat. He said OK, but he was staying down. He was down for at least another 50 minutes and the dive master was getting quite worried. When he surfaced the dive master asked him if he knew anything about dive tables? He shrugged it off and said he'd been diving that way for many years. Would he have been able to handle it if there was an emergency, I don't know, but that is the issue I see with riders that have not had any formal training. If they have not practiced emergency maneuvers, then they probably won't react to an emergency in the proper fashion, and may not have the skills necessary to avoid that emergency situation in the first place. Are you going to convince someonewho's been riding for any length of time but has no formal training? Probably not. JMHO

John
 

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I agree about someone thats been riding a while and its too bad. I've been riding 35 years but just started road racing last year. The things I've learned on the track and in several advanced rider classes have made me a FAR better rider.

re: your dive buddy, thats amazing he hasn't killed himself or someone else.
 

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cldryder wrote:
I agree about someone thats been riding a while and its too bad. I've been riding 35 years but just started road racing last year. The things I've learned on the track and in several advanced rider classes have made me a FAR better rider.

re: your dive buddy, thats amazing he hasn't killed himself or someone else.
Yep, it really is too bad. I rode a lot in my younger years without any formal training. When I bought my Wing in '05 after a long hiatus, I decided to take the ERC to re-hone my skills. I am very glad I did. I learned a lot. Even though I had a lot of miles under my belt going into that class, I found there was much I didn't know or wasn't very good at.

On the dive buddy, yep, either very lucky or very skilled. He dives alone a lot too. What's more amazing is that he's never been bent. With the bottom time he racks up he should have been bent many times.

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Jluvs2dive wrote:
What's more amazing is that he's never been bent. With the bottom time he racks up he should have been bent many times.

John
I've had that pleasure and am here to say it wasn't a pleasure at all:shock:
 

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RayandTracy wrote:
I've had that pleasure and am here to say it wasn't a pleasure at all:shock:
Mmmm, some nice quality time in a hyperbaric chamber. :gunhead: Any lasting issues from it?

John
 

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Jluvs2dive wrote:
RayandTracy wrote:
I've had that pleasure and am here to say it wasn't a pleasure at all:shock:
Mmmm, some nice quality time in a hyperbaric chamber. :gunhead: Any lasting issues from it?

John
Yeah a couple, one I can tell on the forum other better tell you later in a pm:D

Lets just say it hurt and hurt:shock:I have lack of sensation in parts of my body that is just weird and the joint pains are still here today. did I mention breathing testing are something I constantly fail for work related physicals.

Oh to be 20 again:waving:
 

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RayandTracy wrote:
Yeah a couple, one I can tell on the forum other better tell you later in a pm:D

Lets just say it hurt and hurt:shock:I have lack of sensation in parts of my body that is just weird and the joint pains are still here today. did I mention breathing testing are something I constantly fail for work related physicals.

Oh to be 20 again:waving:
Oh man that sucks!! I'm sorry!:( I wonder if we would have treated our bodies better in our youth if we knew how much it was going to hurt later on in life? :gunhead:
 

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Jluvs2dive wrote:
RayandTracy wrote:
Yeah a couple, one I can tell on the forum other better tell you later in a pm:D

Lets just say it hurt and hurt:shock:I have lack of sensation in parts of my body that is just weird and the joint pains are still here today. did I mention breathing testing are something I constantly fail for work related physicals.

Oh to be 20 again:waving:
Oh man that sucks!! I'm sorry!:( I wonder if we would have treated our bodies better in our youth if we knew how much it was going to hurt later on in life? :gunhead:
Nope not a chance in the fire lake (keeping it clean). I wouldn't change one thing I did growing up knowing that later in life I would be paying for it with aches and pains. I had toomuch fun and it gave me character to be the man I am today.
 

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I do think experience should be taken into account with anything. If the guy knows how to dive from experience, then he knows how to dive. The same applies to biking. I do, however, think strongly of riders training courses. I'm glad they are offered. If someone wants professional training, it's there for them. I support that. I will one up you though, I think all young cage drivers should be required to undertake some motorcycle safety training as well as some class A safety training in order to get their drivers permit. That way, they might come to understand what the motorcycle rider and the truck driver are going through and maybe, just maybe cage drivers would be a little more courteous.
 

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bbach wrote:
I do think experience should be taken into account with anything.
I agree with you bbach, a training couse is a great idea, but that's just the beginning, time behind the handlebars is what will make this rider a good one, there are many good riders out there that have never had the course, a "certificate" hanging on your wall doesn't mean your better than the person that never got one.;)
 

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knute wrote:
bbach wrote:
I do think experience should be taken into account with anything.
I agree with you bbach, a training couse is a great idea, but that's just the beginning, time behind the handlebars is what will make this rider a good one, there are many good riders out there that have never had the course, a "certificate" hanging on your wall doesn't mean your better than the person that never got one.;)
I agree too, however, a rider that is experienced and has had some formal training is very likely to be better than a rider who has experience but no formal training. Anybody who thinks they can't learn anything about almost any subject is kidding themselves. ;) The combination of training and experience makes us better at whatever it is we do. Does a professional athelete stop training while they are stillcompeting? Was that guy a good diver? No doubt about it. Would he have been able to handle and under water emergency as well as someone who was both formally trained and had experience? I hope nobody ever has to find out.:)

John
 

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Personally, I feel some of the best riders are those who have raced motorcycles, they know the limitations of that bike, what will cause it to go down, what hard accelleration can make the bike do in all sorts of positions, just having a real control of thier bike, and I think that is the key, havingREAL CONTROL, for some, the bike is in control, it's sort of like a fighter pilot, I have heard from many that they are the best pilots out there, experience in "controlling" something that's out of control.Many have never raced, I'm not worried, in time they can also be excellent riders, I also figure in "natural ability" some can get on a bike as a newbie and be an excellent rider, for others, they must be careful to get the feel of motorcycling and how they react different from anything they have ever driven. In the end, all the different beliefs have thier merits, some maybe more than others, but I feel riding in a respectful, safe manner is 95% of a successful ride.:)
 

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knute wrote:
Personally, I feel some of the best riders are those who have raced motorcycles, they know the limitations of that bike, what will cause it to go down, what hard accelleration can make the bike do in all sorts of positions, just having a real control of thier bike,
Certainly. That said, in general, who gets the most wins? Those who train to win or those who just go race without training? ;) Yes some have more natural ability. Michael Phelps has a ton of natural ability, but he trains rigorously. Michael Jordon has tons of natural ability, but he also trained rigorously. If you have to personally experienceall there is to know about what can go wrong while riding you may not make it through the experience.:) Back in line withhow this got started, do you think throwing a teenager behind the wheel of a car without instruction is better thanteaching them andletting them get experience, under guidance?

John
 

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Jluvs2dive wrote:
Back in line withhow this got started, do you think throwing a teenager behind the wheel of a car without instruction is better thanteaching them andletting them get experience, under guidance?

John
Around here we do it all the time, they are called farm kids!:cheeky1:, seriously though, I said a MOTORCYCLE training course is a great idea when I was agreeing with bbach, I feel if some oneis experienced behind the handlebars, I am fine with that, If they want to take a course, GREAT!, but if they don't want to, should we be worried about them? I'm not, and your question about teenage drivers? I feel all kids should be locked in thier homes until the age of 21!:cheeky1::cheeky1::cheeky1:
 

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knute wrote:
I'm not, and your question about teenage drivers? I feel all kids should be locked in thier homes until the age of 21!:cheeky1::cheeky1::cheeky1:
Only 21? Most still aren't mature enough at 21. I think 25 would be a better choice. ;):D
 

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I think youth does have a lot to do with it, and yeah when you are young, you'll drive with out training, dive without proper training and maybe even jump out of an airplane with out training.
But then you have to ask, what should be considered training? And how much is needed?
 

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I think the main point you two are discussing and don't realize you agree on is training is better than not training. Yes, life experience is worth something but training DOES make you better at what you train for. Next question, it is semi vehicular movement, would anybody go get go-kart traing for their kids or just give them a go-kart and a wide open field to go play or take them to a go-cart track?
 

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82gl1100iwingman wrote:
would anybody go get go-kart traing for their kids or just give them a go-kart and a wide open field to go play or take them to a go-cart track?
Depends on the type of go-cart. If it's the type of go-cart found at most amusement centers very little instruction is needed. The go-cartsare armored and they are being used in a very controlled environment. If it was the type of go-cart used in racing, definitely would give instruction first and would still try to do it in a more controlled environment. Relating this to the original question, this is apples and oranges and comparing them makes little sense. Either a race go-cart or an amusement park go-cart are usually used in a controlled environment. Riding a motorcycle on the streets opens you up to all kinds of environmental elements that are out of your control.

John
 
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