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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Everybody post 'OCTANE AS YOU KNOW IT'....because everybody has a different explanation.

The first year our Police Dept got Crown Vic that required high octane gas, we ordered it. The engines started to knock so we tested the gas. The results showed the gas supplier was using regular gas with octane boosters to get the rating required. I guess high octane gas and one with additives are different even though on the face the octane rating reads the same.

Point 2, ethanol just plain sucks. There was a good article here or Goldwing docs on seperating the ethanol from the gas, pretty interesting read. I was drunk when I read it and can't remember where I read it exactly (or if I even read it at all)...:? (this emoticon is becoming my trademark)
Al
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yeah that was the story. It was very interesting although not useful. Nice to know you're getting screwed though and can see it.

Makes you wonder if you added 1/4 gallon of water to 3/4 gallon of gas if it would actually seperate 10% from the gas the ethanol. That's to much cypherin for me as to what the liquid gas number left would be. Maybe it would have to be read in ounce's, huh?
 

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Ethanol gas is most definitely BAD stuff, but it looks like the E15 has been dropped for now. Non flex fuel cars just won't run on it. Neither will motorcycles. But E10 is bad enough, I have seen a lot of damage caused by it. Unfortunately it is all that is available in my state, other than avgas and racing fuel.

As for octane, for a Goldwing you want the lowest you can get. If you have one of those American made bikes, you need the high octane stuff. But either way, ethanol just plain sucks.
 

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All I know is I run the lowest octane fuel, even 85 in Utah, two up and towing a trailer, never had an issue.
Most vehicles that have ethanol issues have them because they spend time sitting still. Some will have them no matter the usage, but all my rigs have been fine and we have the E10 exclusively. when it sits in the tank/lines the alcohol allows the water to do damage. That, and alcohol is not good for some gaskets.
 

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I keep saying... ... ... and asking,....
IF this Ethanol is bad for our vehicles and causes damage, WHO do we send the bill to?
Or the last resort, sue?

:?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Well there isn't much you can do then if you store your bike for a few months in the winter to protect the system.

When I put my bike away I run it almost empty and then toss in a whole can of seafoam and run that almost out. I park the bike, dump in another can and fill the tank to the top with a can. That's what i've been doing and haven't had any problems once I start riding again.

I know my gas mileage sucks on the ethanol mix. The govt. requires the 10% blend be marked on the pump but legally they can go up to 20% under the 10% sticker. Anything higher has to be marked. So you really don't know what the percentage is.

I know this because TrueNorth had a sticker that stated they add stuff to the gas to handle high heat in the summer. This was in an e-mail reply. They explained everything they did with assurance it wouldn't hurt the engine but may affect gas mileage a bit....They got a big....:wtf: for that line. But they were the ones that told me about the ethanol percentage thing.

They were pretty upfront about everything, why not? They were acting within the federal guidelines and they mentioned a honesty disclosure policy they had. Nothin you can do when the govt. is behind it all.

Are there any additives out there that would lead us to believe may prevent the seperation? I use the seafoam but never read the can. What about regular car dry gas???
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I keep saying... ... ... and asking,....
IF this Ethanol is bad for our vehicles and causes damage, WHO do we send the bill to?
Or the last resort, sue?
:?

Hey FM....If you hold Sue down, i'll exact a 3 second vengence she'll never forget...:lash: .....and it don't have to be a last resort either....................OK i'm officially drunk and goin to bed!!!!!!!!!
 

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I have been using Startron in the bike for the last two years. The big bottle (32 oz) ran me around $35 I think, but at 1/4 ounce per 4 gallons gas, it lasts a long time. I have had no issues at all, but then again if I stopped using it I do not know if I would have any either. I just keep it in an old Stabil bottle in the carport. When I get home after filling the tank I add it while I am right there. They say it 'treats' the ethanol issue.
I know Stabil brand itself markets an ethanol fuel stabilizer, but I have not tried it.
The Seafoam is supposed to also act as a stabilizer as well as clean stuff up. The most I have ever used is 1/2 a can in a full tank of fuel though.
 

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In my area all of the Union 76 gas stations offer alcohol free gas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
RPeters;
Which Star Tron product do you use? None I saw on their web site stated the ethanol stabiliszation issue.

TerryJ;
Is 'alcohol, ethanol? Let's see if you put dry gas in a tank with water it seperates it from the fuel. That link from Bellboy says dump water in gas and the ethanol will drop out with the water. Hmmmm, sounds like it's the same process only reversed.

I own a Jeep too and on the Jeep site EVERYBODY recommends Shell gas. Why, because crud has a way of building up somewhere on the valve stems at the rockers and freezes the valve from spinning, hence burning the valve out. Well it happened to me and 1500.00 later I use shell in it.
It has the cleaning agent to keep stuff cleaner. But it still maintains a satisfying 10 miles to the gallon...

On all the fuels i've put in my Wing, it seems mileage is controlled by how heavy you work the throttle and not mixture or octane. (always regular fuel though)

I think the two issues with fuel are;
Riding additives; I run a dash of TWC3 (or whatever it is) 2 stroke oil in every tank and love that stuff to death (Chromo did a big test on it if you don't know what it is......)
Seafoam for storage...

BUT the big thing is, if I can't buy a product locally, I won't use it. Everybody carries seafoam....Star Tron???? I gotta check that one out.
 

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Everybody post 'OCTANE AS YOU KNOW IT'....because everybody has a different explanation.

The first year our Police Dept got Crown Vic that required high octane gas, we ordered it. The engines started to knock so we tested the gas. The results showed the gas supplier was using regular gas with octane boosters to get the rating required. I guess high octane gas and one with additives are different even though on the face the octane rating reads the same.

Point 2, ethanol just plain sucks. There was a good article here or Goldwing docs on seperating the ethanol from the gas, pretty interesting read. I was drunk when I read it and can't remember where I read it exactly (or if I even read it at all)...:? (this emoticon is becoming my trademark)
Al
I'm not going to research and post links, but I believe you will find that the higher octane fuels actually stop knocking in higher compression engine by retarding the burn. My understanding is that the amount of energy per gallon is virtually the same between reg and hi test? As for the ethanol being bad for your motor, I would say not really, although it does corrode certain metal parts if it sits too long... I've tried to improve my own mileage by only using pure gasoline, but didn't notice any change?
 

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RPeters;
Which Star Tron product do you use? None I saw on their web site stated the ethanol stabiliszation issue.

TerryJ;
Is 'alcohol, ethanol? Let's see if you put dry gas in a tank with water it seperates it from the fuel. That link from Bellboy says dump water in gas and the ethanol will drop out with the water. Hmmmm, sounds like it's the same process only reversed.

I own a Jeep too and on the Jeep site EVERYBODY recommends Shell gas. Why, because crud has a way of building up somewhere on the valve stems at the rockers and freezes the valve from spinning, hence burning the valve out. Well it happened to me and 1500.00 later I use shell in it.
It has the cleaning agent to keep stuff cleaner. But it still maintains a satisfying 10 miles to the gallon...

On all the fuels i've put in my Wing, it seems mileage is controlled by how heavy you work the throttle and not mixture or octane. (always regular fuel though)

I think the two issues with fuel are;
Riding additives; I run a dash of TWC3 (or whatever it is) 2 stroke oil in every tank and love that stuff to death (Chromo did a big test on it if you don't know what it is......)
Seafoam for storage...

BUT the big thing is, if I can't buy a product locally, I won't use it. Everybody carries seafoam....Star Tron???? I gotta check that one out.
I found it in the boating supplies section at Wally World.
 

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http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-consumption/question90.htm
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut12.shtm
Two links above give an extremely basic idea of octane and its purposes.

Shall we get a bit more detailed? Suuuurre. Doesnt take much though
In simple terms, an octane rating is a fuels ability to withstand heat. Or in other words, the higher numbers have a higher flashpoint. That is the SOLE pupose of an octane rating. In an engine designed to run on 87, the compression ratio is low. Which means there is less heat being developed by compressing the air on the compression stroke. The chances of preignition are minimal. This negates any need for higher octane. It is truly this simple. If some fuel companies want to add more detergents to the higher octane fuels, thats their choice. The feds have already stepped in and set minimum requirements for detergents a few years ago. It is unlikely gas companies will go above and beyond those thresholds because the gas will start to get more expensive than the next guy.

So when do you need to have higher octane? Three reasons.
1. When carbon deposits inside the combustion chamber create hot spots
2. When the compression ratio is high enough to demand it.
3 . Forced induction via turbo or supercharging.

If an engine has enough carbon deposits in it to cause the need for higher octane, its time to take it in and have a fuel system cleaning performed. With the newest style of Direct Injection fuel injection, this will be needed much more frequently. On any other type of injection system, fuel is introduced to the airflow BEFORE the valves. This helps to keep the valves free of deposits. As well as allows a bottle of cleaner to be added once in a while to help out. Direct Injection introduces fuel directly into the combustion chamber. An injector sits inside the cylinder just like a spark plug. This system helps to cool the air charge directly. It allows for more advanced timing, as well as a higher compression ratio. Both of which, effect hp and fuel economy. The down side is since fuel is no longer being sprayed over the intake vales, they will load up with carbon at a much faster pace and cause drivability problems. Direct injection is a win-win. Although the build costs are a bit higher, and maintainence costs are higher, its a small price to pay for the advantages it generates.

With the links, and what I have added, anyone should be able to extrapolate the reasons why higher octane is required for #2 & 3

Just to add a little to forced induction. Higher octane numbers allow users to advance the timing to produce additional HP. For instance, My Mustang mentioned in the spark plug post, could generate and easy additional 40-50hp by switching to E85 fuel. E85 has an octane rating of 96, 105, and even 113, depending on the reporting sources. Using the standard octane measurements as gasoline, it equals out to 96 in most cases. BUT, simply putting in E85 will do nothing for power without rewriting the computers software to take advantage of it. The programming for fuel mapping, injector size, air flow metering, timing, etc, all has to be altered to get ANY benefit from using it.

If the average Joe Consumer still has a vehicle with a distributor, then , he too, can simply advance the timing a few degrees and get some more pep out of his engine as long as the octane is there to support it. In a distributorless, computer controlled vehicle, this is impossible to do. Enthusiast cars have plenty of tuning software available. Camrys, Accords, Taurus's and such? Nope not out there. Software development costs would be far greater than any benefit to an individual user. Some of the newest cars coming off the assembly line have the abiltity to adjust timing based on the fuel in the tank. They do this by having a knock sensor, and in conjunction with software, that allows the computer to not only retard timing (which is what has already been happening for years), but advance timing until preignition is detected and back off timing until preignition stops. Very few cars have this capability at this time, but it wont be long before all cars will.

These are the facts that anyone can find out by digging enough online.
Ride On!!
 

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I got mine at the local chain saw sales/shop. It advertises on the label that it stabilizes fuel.
It just comes in a clearish-blue plastic bottle. Seems to be good. No issues at all with it. The shop said they use it in every tool they service/sell now and they are quite reputable in the area (a Stihl dealer).
 

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Honda calls for 91 octane in their manual which is the equivalent of 87 by US and Canada measurement. North American uses mostly MON (Motor Octane Number). Most of the rest of the World uses RON (Research Octane Number). RON tends to measure gasoline about 5-7 points higher than MON. I've never experienced any knock in any of the four models of GW I've owned, if you do it's either a carb, ignition or valve timing problem or carbon which is less likely now with lead free fuel.
 

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...........OK i'm officially drunk and goin to bed!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Love it! So I am not the only one who may be toasted when replying to late night postings!!
 

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http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-consumption/question90.htm
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut12.shtm
Two links above give an extremely basic idea of octane and its purposes.

Shall we get a bit more detailed? Suuuurre. Doesnt take much though
In simple terms, an octane rating is a fuels ability to withstand heat. Or in other words, the higher numbers have a higher flashpoint.
Ride On!!
That was a good explanation... Never understood why HD still builds high compression motors? My VT 1800 runs fine on the regular stuff.. ;-)
 

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Around here all of the Ace hardwares carry Startron in the auto section.
 
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