Oh No Not an Oil question!

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Flatwing wrote:

Yes I.m Sorry It Is But I researched Forum First!

po Said He had Been running Castrol 10w/ 30w In My Bike, went To Local & only Goldwing Shop I Know In Knoxville, Tn Today. Was talking To Shop Guru, Told him about it, He said Get It OUT!!!!! Only UseMOTUL In My 84 Aspy.

What do You all think About this oil? He claimed It would Even Make Shifting Smoother!



Thanks In Advance

(Please No Oil War)

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Not that it isn't good oil....motul is good stuff. I've ran it in the dirt bikes, though I prefer Maxima. Is it necessary??? Nope. It's a Honda. You could probably run vegetable oil in it and it wouldn't hurt it;-) You should see some of the stuff I've done to honda 4-strokes.....like dropping my XR in a river once.......and filling the engine with water. Took the tank off, stood it upside down, pulled the plug, let water pour out of the cylinder....shot some WD40 into the barrel, replaced plug....drain float bowl. Drain bottom of tank. Away you go. Crank case was so full of water....white paste was shooting out of the vent for a hundred miles. When I got it home.....when I removed the drain bolt nothing came out because the "oil" had turned into something like toothpaste. Had to pull the clutch cover off and use gumout to get it out. Then ran 5wt through it 3 or 4 times. I put thousands of miles on that bike after words.....without a hint of a problem, and last I heard it was still going strong.



Multi grade automotive synthetics w/ friction reducing agents can cause bike (wet type) clutches to slip. Plenty have used them for years with no problems....other's have not been so lucky and have had to go back. To each his own.



Multi grade dino (conventional) oils don't have that issue, and if I remember correctly, an independent study years back showed Castrol GTX to be more effective than MC specific oils, and contemporary MC synthetic oils.



I run Shell Rotella T 15w40 in all my stuff.........everything. Mostly because it's only 21 bucks for a 2.5 gallon jug at wally world.

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All major motor oils (motorcycle motor oils included), contain some
degree of additives designed to help reduce (primarily) viscosity breakdown,
by reducing or eliminating as many possible causes as is cost-effectively
feasible. The major additives include Zinc, Phosphorus, Magnesium, Calcium,
Boron. Additionally, various chemicals are added to operate as detergents,
which help ensure contaminants stay suspended in the oil rather than
adhering to surfaces. Then they often toss in something designed to help
ensure oil seals stay healthy and swollen (so you don't get oil leaks). Plus
they toss in some anti-foaming agents (to keep the oil from frothing as it's
churned).
And then some manufacturers also add graphite, teflon (PFTE), and/or
molybdenum as an anti-wear agent, NONE OF WHICH (graphite/PFTE/Moly) ARE
RECOMMENDED FOR WET-CLUTCH MOTORCYCLES; these last chemicals are also
contained in many of the off-the-shelf oil additive packages like DuraLife
and Extend50.

a.. Zinc and Phosphorus -- the two primary metal anti-wear additives.
Their purpose is to provide some degree of lubrication for metal-to-metal
contact when oil pressure is too low (such as bearing surfaces while
starting an engine). These two chemicals are usually packaged together by
additive companies for the oil companies to use, as zinc dithiophosphate
(ZDDP), and the oil companies add varying amounts to different formulations
of their oils. Good for your engine, but high contents of it may foul
catalytic converters if present. Note that motorcycles requiring API SF, API
SG or API SH are not served by API SJ and API SL rated motor oils, as SJ and
SL are lower in ZDDP quantities (and SJ/SL are car-specific, not rated for
motorcycles by the API).

b.. Magnesium, Calcium and Boron -- these are used as anti-corrosives, to
prevent the formation of various chemicals which break down viscosity,
including sulfuric acid. Neutralizing these acids helps keep the oil
effective as a lubricant. The result is also that these chemicals help keep
sludge and varnish from forming. Again, different motor oil manufacturers
add different amounts of these chemicals to their various formulations (from
none to lots).

c.. Detergents -- too many possibilities to list, but they help ensure
that by-products (varnish, sheared oil, dirt, dust, etc) stay suspended in
the oil rather than adhering to the metal surfaces of the engine.

d.. Graphite, Molybdenum (aka "Moly" aka molybdenum disulfide) -- appear
in some automotive motor oils and many aftermarket oil additives, and
unfortunately, in some motorcycle oils. These chemicals are good anti-wear,
anti-scuffing additives, but are totally incompatible with motorcycles which
have wet clutches!
Note that molybdenum is normally used in anti-seize paste in the USA as
the primary ingredient (the type you put on your spark plugs and wheel
bolts).

e.. Teflon (aka poly tetrafluoroethylene or PFTE) -- Teflon in specific is
not intended for engines of any type according to it's original manufacturer
(Dupont), and you should never use a product containing teflon in the oil
system of any engine. Furthermore, it is 100% incompatible with any
motorcycle using a wet-clutch.

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After much research done by other people, I have learned a couple of things.

First, not every oil labeled as "synthetic" is truly a synthetic. In recent years refined dino oils have gotten good enough that they have the same properties/performance as synthetic and can therefore be legally labeled as synthetic, even though they may contain no synthetic oil.

Second, oils certified for use in diesel engines tend to have a higher resistance to viscosity/thermal breakdown and also have a higher shear resistance than most automotive oils. The shear resistance is especially interesting since on most motorcycles (all wings) the oil is used in the tranny as well as the engine and is therefore subjected to more shear forces than in an automobile. They also do not contain the friction modifiers mentioned by Cyclewizard and won't contribute to wet clutch slippage if that is a concern.

Based on the above, I've gone to Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5w40.

Now, unless you have access to the equipment necessary to do oil analysis after it's been in the bike for a while there is no way to objectively quantify what an oil is doing. Many people will insist that a particular oil makes their bike "feel" better. It is my belief, wrong as it may be, that this is often the result of new oil and that feeling may fade as the oil wears.

The bottom line is that better oils will usually last longer. If you commit to an oil change every 1500 miles then you could probably run the cheap-o Wal-Mart store brand with absolutely no problems.

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rcmatt007 wrote:

I keep hearing about the fabeled wet clutch slippage.... has anyone actually had a slipping wet clutch or are we passing along an urban myth? much like the story that synthetics will make good seals leak.

I heard it about synthetics 30 years ago... about the newer oils 20 years ago... etc etc etc

I have run nearly every kind of oil in my 1000 and have never had the clutch slip

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I've seen it in several offroad bikes and one street bike. My experience and research indicates that it is only applicable to multi-grade automotive synthetics that contain a friction reduction agent. The "damage" does not seem to be permanent if it's replaced quickly......although I suppose if left in long enough it would eventually cause a problem. Also, seems more likely to be a problem if the bike is "ridden like it's stolen". Hard acceleration. Somebody who never wraps out their bike, and basically just gently cruises......may not ever notice and may have no issues at all.



Here's examples of cases I've seen:



A CRF450X that the owner used the Mobil 1 Synthetic High Mileage on the tranny side. This was extra dumb, because the 450 is a dual sump engine, so you can run whatever you want on the engine side, and something different on the tranny side. That was the worse case.....clutch slipped so bad, totally amazing. I was sure the plates would need to be replaced. I laid the bike on it's side, pulled the clutch cover and pressure plate and mic'd a couple of the plates and they were basically like new.....no where at all. The mech at the Honda shop assured me that it wasn't "permanent" and just to flush it and fill with correct oil. I drained it and ran 5wt Penzoil in it for a few minutes, drained, and replaced with proper motor oil. Good to go.



A XR250 the owner used Castrol Syntec 20-50 in. A Suzuki GS500 that used the same. Flusing and replacment stopped the slippage. On the Suzi, the slippage was barely noticeable......only under heavy acceleration.



An XR650L (dual sport) that the owner used the Slick 50 additive in.......that was the only one that actually required replacement of the clutch plates.....but the 650L has a pretty weak clutch anyway, and it was probably due before the additive. Thoughtthe additive certainly contributed.

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Hello,

on being told by a 1500 friend, " you gotta try this stuff"
I recently put in my 86 aspy, Motul 3000 4T 20/50 (the 5000 and 7000 series are either semi synthetic or full synthetic and I was a bit wary of trying those, the 3000 series is dino oil)

it has worked really well, the motor is quieter, gearshifting is smoother, although still has the honda clunk lol and it might be my imagination, but according to an oil guru, its possible, there is slightly better power and milage.

I also recently,changed the differential, to motul motyl gear 75/90 and the whine that was there occasionally at cold slow speeds, has disappeared, in fact it really quiet back there, at any speed between 0 and 120 kph.

these are my observations only, and of course could differ but my 1500 friend is getting much the same results on semi synthetic

good luck,

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I am the 1500 owner/friend of oldish winger.
I have had the bike for 2 1/2 years and have tried several different oils. Motul was recommended by our local shop who has changed over fully to Motul Products after 20+ years in the business.
I use the 5100 semi series 10/40w
End results
Bike a lot quieter, gear change much smother, increased performance and economy.
After fitment of progresive front springs I used Motul fork oil 7.5w Much more comfortable ride.
I also am about to change out the rear drive to Motul.
Our local Honda goldwing Riders club organiser has also changed his 1800 over to Motul from Mobil #1.
He used Motul in his go-cart engines several years ago with great success. He noticed an immediate improvement with the 1800. More responsive and quieter.
I would not consider changing again. But it is everyone to their own and if you get a good run out of what you use then go for it.
As for cluth slippage. yes i ruined several cluthes on an old Suzuki 250 trail bike running conventional Castrol GTX. learned my lesson.