Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
21 - 40 of 117 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
475 Posts
imported post

Just changed the oil to Castrol GTX 10w40 general (non-motorcycle) oil after reading an interesting article from Motorcycle Consumer News 1994 which was based on scientific comparison data... I'm sure lots of people have seen this article, but it helped make up my mind. So far the bike loves this oil, and seems happy to get the synthetic blend Motul 5100 outta there..http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
407 Posts
imported post

Mag,

Very interesting article . thanks for posting it

I was reading an article recently , an interview with a courier / dispatch rider who covered some 800,000 miles on his bike [not a wing], hehad to changehis engine after 475,000 miles!
He only used cheap oil designed for Diesel cars, he regularly did 1000 miles a day and you can imagine how often he was changing the oil! Getting 475,000 miles from a sports bike is good going I would say and if you can get this on cheap oil all the better. Keep to the manufactures recommended oil change schedule and you wont go far wrong.

I use Castrol GPS semi synthetic in my 1200, probably overkill. Maybe I'll just start using GTX its a lot cheaper

BB
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
708 Posts
imported post

I read an article a couple years back, where one of the popular motorcycle rags did a comparison test taking two brand new Honda CBR900RRs and puting Honda oil in one and Castol GTX in the other. They ran them both to 100k miles and took 'em apart, and put a mic to everything. The rag reported, "we found no appreciable difference, but that the Castrol GTX show very minor amount of LESS wear."
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,491 Posts
imported post

77GL1 wrote:
I read an article a couple years back, where one of the popular motorcycle rags did a comparison test taking two brand new Honda CBR900RRs and puting Honda oil in one and Castol GTX in the other. They ran them both to 100k miles and took 'em apart, and put a mic to everything. The rag reported, "we found no appreciable difference, but that the Castrol GTX show very minor amount of LESS wear."
77GL1, that sure is a scientific test. Who ran them both for 100K? The same rider or were the bikes ridden by a multitude of riders under differing conditions. What were the original (post test) build measurements?

You have to remember those magazines need articles to fill out their pages so sort of stretch things to fill pages.

I test vehicles for a living & wouldn't dream of publishing test data without the control factors listed with the test. Pre-test measurements, post test measurements, amount & type of oil added during the test period, type of driving during the test period, number of cold starts on each vehicle. How many shifts did the higher wear bike miss VS. the lower wear bike miss? How may hours at higher RPM's did the higher wear bike operate at than the lower wear bike did. Well, you get the idea here. That wasn't a test it was a guess..

Twisty
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,491 Posts
imported post

77GL1 wrote:
....I used to use Castrol 10/40, but found that Valvoline retains better vescosity after 2000 miles. On my SuperSport, the couple time I ran it to 3000 miles between oil changes, the transmission shifted much better with the Valvoline.
77GL1, why do you say the Valvoline retains better viscosity than the Castrol does.

What Valvoline are you comparing to what Castrol?

What lab did you use for the viscosity tests?

What was the original kinematic viscosity of the oil's tested & what was the post test kinematic viscosity?

Oil's vary greatly in their HT/HS rating by type of oil within a brand so we need to know the products you are comparing here.

Twisty
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,381 Posts
imported post

mag wrote:
Just changed the oil to Castrol GTX general (non-motorcycle) oil after reading an interesting article from Motorcycle Consumer News 1994 which was based on scientific comparison data.I'msure lots of people have seen this article, but it helped make up my mind. So far the bike loves this oil, and seems happy to get the synthetic blend Motul 5100 outta there..http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm
I use automotive oil as well (Castrol GTX). Never had a problem with it... the bike-specific oils are a bunch of hype. Bike oil has one use... to extract more money from your wallet.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
407 Posts
imported post

Hi Twisty

I would be interested in your view of using cheap oil designed for dieselengines, the guyin the article certaintly got the use of his engine doing it, but I suspect his choice was purely on financial grounds.

Is it really a viable alternative ,I know diesel engine oil is usually high detergent, what are the long termeffects of using high detergent oils in a petrol engine? [apart from it being way clean...;)]

Thanks

BB

[still on best behaviour]
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
708 Posts
imported post

twisty wrote:
77GL1 wrote:
....I used to use Castrol 10/40, but found that Valvoline retains better vescosity after 2000 miles. On my SuperSport, the couple time I ran it to 3000 miles between oil changes, the transmission shifted much better with the Valvoline.
77GL1, why do you say the Valvoline retains better viscosity than the Castrol does.

What Valvoline are you comparing to what Castrol?

What lab did you use for the viscosity tests?

What was the original kinematic viscosity of the oil's tested & what was the post test kinematic viscosity?

Oil's vary greatly in their HT/HS rating by type of oil within a brand so we need to know the products you are comparing here.

Twisty
Cut me a little slack, Twisty.....after running Castrol GTX in my SuperSport for 5 years (and in air-cooled VWs for 30), I tryed Valvoline after reading some comparitive test, and found that it seemed to hold up better after 2000 miles. My '76 CB836F was somewhat abused sometime before I got it, and it's a little sticky in the shifting department. I found that nearing the 3000 mile mark, the Valvoline seemed to keep the transmission shifting better.....It felt MUCH better to me!!! Maybe not very scientific, but I've got 35 years of riding and I know what's goin' on in my engine.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,491 Posts
imported post

77GL1 wrote:
Cut me a little slack, Twisty.....after running Castrol GTX in my SuperSport for 5 years (and in air-cooled VWs for 30), I tryed Valvoline after reading some comparitive test, and found that it seemed to hold up better after 2000 miles. My '76 CB836F was somewhat abused sometime before I got it, and it's a little sticky in the shifting department. I found that nearing the 3000 mile mark, the Valvoline seemed to keep the transmission shifting better.....It felt MUCH better to me!!! Maybe not very scientific, but I've got 35 years of riding and I know what's goin' on in my engine.
77GL1, not trying to give you a hard time, just wondering how you determined the VISCOSITY held up longer without a lab test?.

I see you based your determination on the oil's viscosity on how well the trans shifted after 2000 miles.

I have been in the testing & validation engineering business for well over 30 years & couldn't tell you what my oil's (actual)viscosity was whenI installed it let alone after 2000 miles of use without an oil viscositytest.

By your trans shifting better with a different oil brand tells me it is probably more additive related than viscosity related but I couldn't even begin to confirm that without an oil test.

In all the test data I have seen there isn't a (multi-weight) Dino oil out there that will hold it's viscosity after 2000 miles (that's based on the furnished oil data test sheets & follow-up oil tests run in the lab).. Most 10W40 oil's are around 10W20 in an internal trans application after 1000-2000 miles.

Again, I apologize if I offended you I just like to know all the facts.

Twisty
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,491 Posts
imported post

Black Bart wrote:
Hi Twisty

I would be interested in your view of using cheap oil designed for dieselengines, the guyin the article certaintly got the use of his engine doing it, but I suspect his choice was purely on financial grounds.

Is it really a viable alternative ,I know diesel engine oil is usually high detergent, what are the long termeffects of using high detergent oils in a petrol engine? [apart from it being way clean...;)]
BB, "cheap oil designed for dieselengines".. That would be hard to find, most all the Diesel rated oils are a very good oil with great anti-wear additives, good anti-scuff additives, high phosphorus content, fair amount of zinc & very good soot control. Basically a diesel rated oil makes a very good motorcycle oil. In most (diesel motor oil) I have seen test data on the base stock is better that comparable auto oil.

One reason it is a little cheaper is the amount made & sold as most fleets use it by the barrel full.

Diesel rated oil really doesn't have more detergent in it, it is just formulated to suspend the dirt a little better.

If you look at the oil data sheets most diesel rated oil's are much closer to the motorcycle only oil than automobile motor oil.

Remember that diesel oil is left in the big trucks for many thousands of miles with maybe a by-pass filtration system installed & an occasional filter change.

Until the synthetics became compatible with each other & refined enough to make a good motorcycle oil that is all I used was a diesel rated oil.

Twisty
 

·
Postpubescent member
Joined
·
36,382 Posts
imported post

axelwik wrote:
I use automotive oil as well (Castrol GTX). Never had a problem with it... the bike-specific oils are a bunch of hype. Bike oil has one use... to extract more money from your wallet.
I'd agree with you as far as water cooled engines go, can't see where the operational parameters of a water cooled engine should differ whether it's in a car or a bike. In the case of an aircooled engine I'm not so sure. They run through a lot greater temperature range, often in an aircooled engine the head and oil temps are the limiting factors of operation. This is true in air cooled aircraft engines. Normally this isn't a problem in water cooled engines since they normally don't reach such high temps. One other factor is that most aircooled engines are built with greater clearances in bearings and pistons to allow for the greater expansion with heat. It's true that VWs ran using standard auto oils, but those engines good as they were, weren't known for longevity in most cases.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,491 Posts
imported post

exavid wrote:
I'd agree with you as far as water cooled engines go, can't see where the operational parameters of a water cooled engine should differ whether it's in a car or a bike. In the case of an aircooled engine I'm not so sure. They run through a lot greater temperature range, often in an aircooled engine the head and oil temps are the limiting factors of operation. This is true in air cooled aircraft engines. Normally this isn't a problem in water cooled engines since they normally don't reach such high temps. One other factor is that most aircooled engines are built with greater clearances in bearings and pistons to allow for the greater expansion with heat. It's true that VWs ran using standard auto oils, but those engines good as they were, weren't known for longevity in most cases.
exavid, while it's true the operational differences between a car & water cooled motorcycleare close, the Wing motorcycle uses the same oil for the transmission & there lies the big snafu.. Those trans gears are very hard on the oil's polymers.. That brings us to the automotive (only) oil's,, most automotive oils are fairly weak in the base stock department so use an abundant amount of polymers to get the multi-weight rating. That doesn't matter much in a car, as mentioned above a car engine is very easy on the oil. Just look at some of the test data taken with the same oil in a car & motorcycle. Some of the car type oil's (10W40)are as low as 10W20 in an internal trans environment at 800 miles with the same oil in a car still being 10W35 at 2000 miles.

Is it a big deal, probably not as most10W40 type oils meet Honda's specs. Is there a better oil for an internal trans application, yes..

One saving grace is that the 10W40 oil's aren't really a car oil anymore as 10W40hasn't been speced out for cars or light trucks in years so they still retain some of the better additive packages that have been removed from the car only oil's due to converter damage concerns.

Twisty
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
475 Posts
imported post

According to the lab-based study of Relative Viscosity Retention Comparisons Among Five Brands of Automotive and Motorcycle Oils, by John C. Woolum/ Ph.D., Professor of Physics California State University, Los Angeles, also a motorcyclist:

"I could find nothing to support the argument that automotive oils were somehow less effective than motorcycle-specific lubricants when used in a motorcycle."

Based on Relative Viscosity Retention (as a percentage of initial viscosity retained after normal use in the same motorcycle). This is from 0 to 1500 miles.

This is enough to convince me.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,491 Posts
imported post

mag wrote:
According to the lab-based study of Relative Viscosity Retention Comparisons Among Five Brands of Automotive and Motorcycle Oils, by John C. Woolum/ Ph.D., Professor of Physics California State University, Los Angeles, also a motorcyclist:

"I could find nothing to support the argument that automotive oils were somehow less effective than motorcycle-specific lubricants when used in a motorcycle."

Based on Relative Viscosity Retention (as a percentage of initial viscosity retained after normal use in the same motorcycle). This is from 0 to 1500 miles.

This is enough to convince me.
Mag, you really should re-read that article. It was well written & seems to be well laid out. You're paying way too much attention to the car oil VS motorcycle oil part. I'm not & NEVER HAVE advocated using motorcycle oil (I don't myself). 10W40 isn't car oil anymore anyhow as it isn't converter friendly.

Pay particular attention to the viscosity retention of the various oil's he tested. Then read the part about the only oil he would personally leave in longer.. Then look at the same oil (Castrol) in his test motorcycle VS the Honda automobile. In the motorcycle that Castrol lost almost 1/4 of it's original viscosity at 800 miles. In the Honda car it only lost about 8% after 3600 miles.

I just wish he would have tested more oil's as there are others that rate right up there (or higher) with the Mobil 1 in viscosity retention.

Twisty

Part of his article follows..

____________________________

"Each of these oils was run in the same motorcycles 1984 Honda V65 Sabre-under as near to identical conditions as possible. The oils were sampled for testing at 0, 800 and 1500 miles each.
As temperature has a strong effect on viscosity, I had to make certain it was carefully controlled for the experiments. Using a laboratory temperature control chamber, all measurements were made at 99 degrees Celsius (error factor of plus or minus 0.5 degrees), which is about 210 degrees Fahrenheit. This is the most common temperature used for oil viscosity measurements. It usually took about 15 minutes for each sample to achieve equilibrium within the chamber.
Each oil's kinematic viscosity was compared with its own kinematic viscosity at 0 miles to establish the viscosity ratio. In addition, measurements were made of each oil's density at each state of the tests. The densities were found to change by less than one percent, which is about the limit of the accuracy of the measurements. Therefore, a ratio of the times taken for the oils to pass through the viscometer effectively gives the ratio of their actual viscosities, since the densities cancel out.
What this all means in layman's terms then, is that the ratio established for each oil at the end of each test is a percentage of the amount of original viscosity retained at that point. For example. the Castro] GTX sample at 800 miles showed a relative viscosity of 0.722, meaning it had retained 72.2 percent of its original viscosity. Or, if you want to look at it the other way, the Castrol had lost 27.8 percent of its viscosity after 800 miles of use in the motorcycle.
Just for comparison sake, I also tested the viscosity drop of the Castrol GTX automotive oil after use in a 1987 Honda Accord automobile. At 3600 miles of use, the Castrol GTX showed a relative viscosity of 91.8 percent.
As the Mobil 1 had retained so much of its viscosity after the 1500 mile test, it was the only oil I allowed to run longer in the motorcycle. After 2500 miles, the Mobil 1 recorded a relative viscosity of 79.1 percent." ~~~
 

·
Postpubescent member
Joined
·
36,382 Posts
imported post

Ya gotta know what's gonna happen when someone says 'oil'!:doh:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
805 Posts
imported post

exavid wrote:
Ya gotta know what's gonna happen when someone says 'oil'!:doh:
That's why I'm staying out of this one, because I know I'm right.:goofygrin:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
708 Posts
imported post

Here's a good one! I have very little faith in scientists and their theorys. This because, as far as I can tell, they are always wrong. When ever a "great scientist, Dr. or PHD comes up with proof about something he or she is researching, what happens? Sure enough, a few years later, another scientist, Dr. or PHD comes up with an all new conclusion to the same or further research....."new research shows that this is how it really works." So all I get out'a that, they're always wrong.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,381 Posts
imported post

exavid wrote:
I'd agree with you as far as water cooled engines go, can't see where the operational parameters of a water cooled engine should differ whether it's in a car or a bike. In the case of an aircooled engine I'm not so sure. They run through a lot greater temperature range, often in an aircooled engine the head and oil temps are the limiting factors of operation. This is true in air cooled aircraft engines. Normally this isn't a problem in water cooled engines since they normally don't reach such high temps. One other factor is that most aircooled engines are built with greater clearances in bearings and pistons to allow for the greater expansion with heat. It's true that VWs ran using standard auto oils, but those engines good as they were, weren't known for longevity in most cases.
That's fine... when I rode air-cooled bikes I used Mobil-1 synthetic for that very reason - temperature extremes. For my water-cooled bike I'm pretty safe using the cheap stuff.

Like I've said before, the most important thing is to change it often.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,381 Posts
imported post

77GL1 wrote:
Here's a good one! I have very little faith in scientists and their theorys. This because, as far as I can tell, they are always wrong. When ever a "great scientist, Dr. or PHD comes up with proof about something he or she is researching, what happens? Sure enough, a few years later, another scientist, Dr. or PHD comes up with an all new conclusion to the same or further research....."new research shows that this is how it really works." So all I get out'a that, they're always wrong.
You obviously don't know much about science, engineering,or the world that you live on. Look around you, science brought you almost all those things.
 
21 - 40 of 117 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top