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Twisty,

Thanks for persevering with the thread, it really is informative and enlightening.:weightlifter:

There seems to bea lot of misconceptions about whatis the right/best oil for the wing. While synthetics are obviously good oils they are probably well overspecced for my 18 year old1200 ,but quite suitable for an 1800. I use Castrol GPS currently its a semi synthetic and am beginning to think this is overkill as well. It costs £26 per oil change, I can currently get Castrol GTX for nearly half that price and am thinking that the benefits do notjustify the price differential.
It would appear that I would be far better off financially choosing a product like GTX even if I choose to change it sooner at say 2,500 miles my engine really won't care ,with it being water cooled its unlikely to get hot enough to burn off the higher fractions in the oil and produce any sludge.:baffled:

I think it would be really useful for the future if Twisty and a few of you Senior Guru's worked on a fact sheet. Cover the 1000' 1100; 1200, 1500 and 1800. Put forward the recommended Oil, a few ofthe alternatives, and a few of the ones to stay away from, together with schedules for changes and what yourexperience has shown to be best over the years. I find discussions like this very interesting, however sometimes a new person to the forum just wants to know which Oil, an FAQ like this would be really helpful in those circumstances. I know not everyone will agree but this is the way with most things....:goofygrin:

Thanks

BB
 

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Twisty, are you telling me to re-read that article to find out that motorcycles break down oil viscosity faster than cars? Ummm....ok. The bottom line of the article IS to defray the myth by manufacturers that motorcycle oils are superior in resisting shear and breakdown than auto oil when used in bikes. Hence the TITLE of the article and the study, no??

The other conclusion is that the one claim about synthetics holds true vs. conventional oil. The article lists Castrol GTX as the highest viscosity retention of the conventional oils tested when used in motorcycles, which is really what i'm solely concerned with.
 

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Black Bart wrote:
Twisty,

Thanks for persevering with the thread, it really is informative and enlightening.

There seems to bea lot of misconceptions about whatis the right/best oil for the wing. While synthetics are obviously good oils they are probably well overspecced for my 18 year old1200 ,but quite suitable for an 1800. I use Castrol GPS currently its a semi synthetic and am beginning to think this is overkill as well. It costs £26 per oil change, I can currently get Castrol GTX for nearly half that price and am thinking that the benefits do notjustify the price differential.
It would appear that I would be far better off financially choosing a product like GTX even if I choose to change it sooner at say 2,500 miles my engine really won't care ,with it being water cooled its unlikely to get hot enough to burn off the higher fractions in the oil and produce any sludge.

I think it would be really useful for the future if Twisty and a few of you Senior Guru's worked on a fact sheet. Cover the 1000' 1100; 1200, 1500 and 1800. Put forward the recommended Oil, a few ofthe alternatives, and a few of the ones to stay away from, together with schedules for changes and what yourexperience has shown to be best over the years. I find discussions like this very interesting, however sometimes a new person to the forum just wants to know which Oil, an FAQ like this would be really helpful in those circumstances. I know not everyone will agree but this is the way with most things....
BB, you say..
There seems to bea lot of misconceptions about whatis the right/best oil for the wing.
Probably so, I believe it's more like mis-understanding of what their oil needs really are.There is no ONE BEST OIL for the older Wing or any Wing for that matter. Oil choice is a compromise based on one's needs, budget, availability, intended usage, etc.



While synthetics are obviously good oils they are probably well overspeced for my 18 year old1200 ,but quite suitable for an 1800
There is no such thing as over-speced oil. Some oil's do certain things better than others. Is it a factor in your oil choice? Probably so if you are asking here. Just because your bike is older doesn't mean it needs a lower quality oil.

I use Castrol GPS currently its a semi synthetic and am beginning to think this is overkill as well. It costs £26 per oil change, I can currently get Castrol GTX for nearly half that price and am thinking that the benefits do notjustify the price differential.

That's possible, semi synthetic oil is a marketing ploy. ALL modern oil contains some synthetic products so can be called semi synthetic. Marketing knows this but most people don't so oil shouldn't be purchased by name or type but should be purchased by it's specification & performance data. FIRST, you need to define what's most important to you (price, shearing resistance, viscosity retention, availability, storage protection, start-up protection, anti-wear content, base stock type, cold pour points, flash point, total base number, Noack number, etc). Then define you budget & need, then pick an oil that meets of exceeds that. Some oil's are really greatin one or two areas but fall short in others. Even country makes a difference as a lot of oil's are blended for specific regions of the world due to different driving habits & automobile types in that region or laws governing product advertising in that region.



It would appear that I would be far better off financially choosing a product like GTX even if I choose to change it sooner at say 2,500 miles my engine really won't care ,with it being water cooled its unlikely to get hot enough to burn off the higher fractions in the oil and produce any sludge.

That is very possible, there is that trade off of budget VS performance. I wouldn't be too concerned with sludge as just about all modern oil's perform good in that department. There is a flash point where the light ends of the oil start to boil off but that is more an air cooled motorcycle problem than a Wing problem.




I think it would be really useful for the future if Twisty and a few of you Senior Guru's worked on a fact sheet. Cover the 1000' 1100; 1200, 1500 and 1800. Put forward the recommended Oil, a few ofthe alternatives, and a few of the ones to stay away from, together with schedules for changes and what yourexperience has shown to be best over the years.

I do have a PERSONAL rating sheet (fact sheet) that uses a weighted algorithm to basically rate an oil's performance. Problem is: it is based on MY PERSONAL needs, riding & storage habits, availability in my area, etc. Choosing an oil is probably based more on your riding habits, type of operation, storage lengths than motorcycle type as long as the motorcycles are basically the same type.

One thing to keep in mind is: most of the better modern oil's are pretty darn good at most things it's just a matter of how much you want to pay for better in areas that are important to you.

I'm not sure anyone could put out a chart with a BEST recommended oil for any motorcycle, or car, or equipment. It's all a give & take. What will you give up here to get this there? Will you give up lots of money to get a little better viscosity retention? Will you wait months to get the very best oil shipped to you if you can buy almost as good at the corner store? Would you give up some cold start protection to get better storage protection? (well you get the idea here).

I can easily pick the best oil for my own personal usage, riding style,& expectations but it isn't available in my area so I go with a slightly lower overall rated oil to get a local easy to find supply.

There is one other consideration: Oil's change additive packages, change API ratings, change prices on a very regular basis so what was the best oil last year might not be the best this year. (that is one of the problems with published oil comparison tests). You really need to obtain all the oil manufacturer's (CURRENT) spec sheets to keep up to date on what has changed & what hasn't in the oil you are using. Remember automotive oil's are blended for automotive type usage so how it works in your motorcycle isn't a big concern to the oil companies. Products are added (or removed) every so often to meet new vehicle needs or specs so keep that in mind.

I won't even try to recommend an oil to you but looking at my oil rating chart (keep in mind the data is a little old as I haven't updated it in a few months) it looks like there is very little difference in the performance of the Castrol GPS & the GPX for motorcycle important areas.

Twisty
 

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I have always used Castol GTX 20W50 in my bikes and never experienced problems at any time, but, when I felt brave and tried to switch to Mobil 1 on two separate occassions I experienced problems in each case (1-blown seal immediately upon cold start, 2-slipping clutch under high load.)

(It's hard to tell any difference in an oil's performance, but, I distinctly recall using a name brand multi grade oil in my boat (350 Chevy engine). Boats are extreme duty engines because of load and RPM. What happened with the oil is that when the engine got hot after an extended run at 4600 RPM upon slow down the valve lifters would clack like crazy until the engine cooled somewhat. To cure this I switched to a single grade 30 weight oil and never heard from the lifters again. I have often wondered what would happen if I did the same with my Wing, but, I'd have to be very careful about cold temperature starts and change the oil to a multi grade when the tempdropped.)

Has anyone here ever trieda straight 30 weight oil in their Wing to check performance?

Vic
 

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Mag Wrote..

Twisty, are you telling me to re-read that article to find out that motorcycles break down oil viscosity faster than cars? Ummm....ok
No, it looks like you already figured that one out.




The other conclusion is that the one claim about synthetics holds true vs. conventional oil. The article lists Castrol GTX as the highest viscosity retention of the conventional oils tested when used in motorcycles, which is really what i'm solely concerned with.


("of the conventional oils tested")- That is a real comprehensive test there. He sure didn't test a lot of oil products did he. How current is the test data? Lets see, that GTX is a whole 2.4 % better than the Honda oil at 1500 miles & Honda oil isn't anything to hoot & holler about.

I really didn't see that he "defrayed the myth by manufacturers that motorcycle oils are superior in resisting shear and breakdown than auto oil when used in bikes". What he did do is show that a few oil's are better than the Honda OE oil or Spectro 4 . Wonder why he didn't include the 76 4Tmc, Amsoil motorcycle oil?, Or Mobil 1 MX4T?, or Torco MPZ motorcycle?..

I have to say one thing about that Castrol GPX in looking at my spec sheets, it looks like it might be a pretty good petro oil based on the initial cost. It is up the charts a ways for a petro based oil & it is fairly cheap to purchase.

Twisty
 

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Goldwinger1984 wrote:
I have always used Castol GTX 20W50 in my bikes and never experienced problems at any time, but, when I felt brave and tried to switch to Mobil 1 on two separate occassions I experienced problems in each case (1-blown seal immediately upon cold start, 2-slipping clutch under high load.)

(It's hard to tell any difference in an oil's performance, but, I distinctly recall using a name brand multi grade oil in my boat (350 Chevy engine). Boats are extreme duty engines because of load and RPM. What happened with the oil is that when the engine got hot after an extended run at 4600 RPM upon slow down the valve lifters would clack like crazy until the engine cooled somewhat. To cure this I switched to a single grade 30 weight oil and never heard from the lifters again. I have often wondered what would happen if I did the same with my Wing, but, I'd have to be very careful about cold temperature starts and change the oil to a multi grade when the tempdropped.)

Has anyone here ever trieda straight 30 weight oil in their Wing to check performance?

Vic
Twisty, what is your opinion of using straight 30 weight oil in a motorcycle engine like our Wing?

Vic
 

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Goldwinger1984 wrote:
Goldwinger1984 wrote:
I have always used Castol GTX 20W50 in my bikes and never experienced problems at any time, but, when I felt brave and tried to switch to Mobil 1 on two separate occassions I experienced problems in each case (1-blown seal immediately upon cold start, 2-slipping clutch under high load.)

(It's hard to tell any difference in an oil's performance, but, I distinctly recall using a name brand multi grade oil in my boat (350 Chevy engine). Boats are extreme duty engines because of load and RPM. What happened with the oil is that when the engine got hot after an extended run at 4600 RPM upon slow down the valve lifters would clack like crazy until the engine cooled somewhat. To cure this I switched to a single grade 30 weight oil and never heard from the lifters again. I have often wondered what would happen if I did the same with my Wing, but, I'd have to be very careful about cold temperature starts and change the oil to a multi grade when the tempdropped.)

Has anyone here ever trieda straight 30 weight oil in their Wing to check performance?

Vic
Twisty, what is your opinion of using straight 30 weight oil in a motorcycle engine like our Wing?
Vic, in years past that would have been a good option to control oil shearing as a single weight wasn't fluffed out with polymers to obtain a multi-weight rating. In todays oil world you probably wouldn't gain much as most multi-weight oils will easily meet the single weight spec.

The problem with a single weight 30 weight is it would be a little lacking in viscosity at high operating temps & wouldn't perform very well at cold start. The oil companies haven't put much development work into the single weight oils in the past decade so the additive packages probably aren't up to par with the current multi-weights.

I'm not sure why you had problems with the Mobil 1. There isn't anything in that to blow a seal out. ALL modern oil's have seal conditioners in them.As far as the clutch slippage goes, again I can't see where the Mobil 1 effected that. You would be much more likely to get clutch slippage using a modern energy rated oil as most ofthose contain some moly to get the energy rating. (did you use a 5W30 Mobil 1 or one of the other energy rated Mobil 1's?)..

If you are scared of the full PAO synthetics then you might look into one of the 15W diesel rated motor oils as those contain a very hardy well balanced base stock with good anti-wear additives & good high temp viscosity control.

If I didn't run a PAO based synthetic in all my cars, trucks & bikes I would run a 15W diesel rated petroleum oil for sure as those are very shear stable (for a petro based) & have excellent anti wear & anti scuff additives for after storage start-up protection.

Twisty
 

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axelwik wrote:
You obviously don't know much about science, engineering,or the world that you live on. Look around you, science brought you almost all those things.
I don't think you understand the point I was trying to make. The conclusions that studies and research show is often thought of as "absolute". Scientist (these days) go out of their way to simulate real world conditions, but when it actually comes to the real world of an indiviual vehicle being used by an indiviualin HIGHLY VARIED cercumstances, there's always an exception to the rule, the conclusion of a study just doesn't have much validity at that point.

.....and it's typical for an engineer to phd to think him/herself to be right, till another one comes along that's better or smarter, and proves him/her wrong....it's called progress.

I've had discoussions about this very subject (oil) with a man that is world famous for building airplanes that out perform and get better gas milage than the rest. He's been doing it for several decades and beating the rest of the airplane builder at ease of maintenance top speed and fuel effiecency for a long time. He's followed all the studies and done his own tests (he manufactures airplanes)....I asked him what was the best for an engine, and he told me, "having oil in it."
 

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77GL1 wrote:
axelwik wrote:
You obviously don't know much about science, engineering,or the world that you live on. Look around you, science brought you almost all those things.
I don't think you understand the point I was trying to make. The conclusions that studies and research show is often thought of as "absolute". Scientist (these days) go out of their way to simulate real world conditions, but when it actually comes to the real world of an indiviual vehicle being used by an indiviualin HIGHLY VARIED cercumstances, there's always an exception to the rule, the conclusion of a study just doesn't have much validity at that point.

.....and it's typical for an engineer to phd to think him/herself to be right, till another one comes along that's better or smarter, and proves him/her wrong....it's called progress.

I've had discoussions about this very subject (oil) with a man that is world famous for building airplanes that out perform and get better gas milage than the rest. He's been doing it for several decades and beating the rest of the airplane builder at ease of maintenance top speed and fuel effiecency for a long time. He's followed all the studies and done his own tests (he manufactures airplanes)....I asked him what was the best for an engine, and he told me, "having oil in it."
Hey 77GL1:waving:I understand your point, and like Goldwinger 1984 I have used Castrol 20W50 in every motor I have owned the last 20 years without any oil related problems, to me that says more than all the statistics and datayou could gather in 20 years. "The Proof Is In The Pudding" as they say. I am not worried about the engineers who like you say, try to simulate real world conditions. I honestly believe any name brand oil is more than good enough to run in most any engine and perform just fine as long as you change it and the filter often. That is the real criteria a person needs to consider about oil. Change it . Just my opinion of course. How many engines these days fail due to a problem with the oil? I do not hear of that happening unless the engine is out of oil.:baffled:



:12red::cool:
 

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I honestly believe any name brand oil is more than good enough to run in most any engine and perform just fine as long as you change it and the filter often.
Sounds good to me! After using Castrol GTX since the early or mid '70s, I've found that my transmission shifts better closing in on 3000 miles, with Valvoline. I'm not saying it's better oil, but at the moment I find it works better in my '76 SuperSport, so I've switched. I don't know what real difference it makes, but I do know my transmission is shifting better.

I tend to change my oil at 2000 miles, but afew tmies ovor the years, I've pushedit to 3k.
 

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77GL1 wrote:
I don't think you understand the point I was trying to make. The conclusions that studies and research show is often thought of as "absolute". Scientist (these days) go out of their way to simulate real world conditions, but when it actually comes to the real world of an indiviual vehicle being used by an indiviualin HIGHLY VARIED cercumstances, there's always an exception to the rule, the conclusion of a study just doesn't have much validity at that point.

.....and it's typical for an engineer to phd to think him/herself to be right, till another one comes along that's better or smarter, and proves him/her wrong....it's called progress.

I've had discoussions about this very subject (oil) with a man that is world famous for building airplanes that out perform and get better gas milage than the rest. He's been doing it for several decades and beating the rest of the airplane builder at ease of maintenance top speed and fuel effiecency for a long time. He's followed all the studies and done his own tests (he manufactures airplanes)....I asked him what was the best for an engine, and he told me, "having oil in it."
Ed, in response to this post, and your earlier one.



There is nothing “absolute” in science (or in any other part of life). If somebody calls it “absolute” and also calls it science, then that person is not a scientist. When you read an article or see something on TV about some kind of “breakthrough” or “study,” you should be asking questions like; who is funding this research? For example, when an oil company or some other vested interest funds research on global warming do you really think that their scientists will come to the conclusion, “The consumption of fossil fuels contributes to global warming”? I don’t think so (especially when every scientific institution and government in the world supports the theory). It’s called junk science.



Junk science is where there is a belief or idea, and these people try to prove that belief by designing experiments to prove it, or use data that supports their belief and discard anything that does not support it. FOLLOW – THE – MONEY!



Real science is where there is uncertainty, and the scientist looks at all the data, is critical of what he is seeing, designs many experiments and/or observations without regard for one outcome or another, and does not discount anything. The truth falls where the truth falls.



Most people, when they hear the words “scientific theory” immediately think, “Oh, it’s only a theory.”



The pedestrian use of the word, “theory” was borrowed from science, but is grossly distorted in its meaning. The definition of a “scientific theory” is far different[/i] than when somebody says, “Hey buddy, I have a theory about…”



To be considered a scientific theory it must withstand a huge amount of scrutiny, including repeated and duplicable experiments or observations by many scientists, it must be peer-reviewed by the top scientists in that field, and it usually takes years and even generations before something is accepted as a scientific theory. If it hasn’t gone through this scrutiny it’s nothing but an idea or a hypothesis.



Studies and research are just that… studies and research. They are ideas. By knowing who is doing the research, who is funding it, and why they are doing it, you’ll be better prepared to evaluate weather to take it with a grain of salt or not. A study or a bit of research certainly does not equal a scientific theory!



You said in an earlier post that scientists and engineers are always wrong and that you don’t have any faith in them. I really do take exception to that.



I don’t think you’d be riding a motorcycle if it wasn’t for scientists doing their jobs. Geologists find the oil (which is getting harder and harder to find and extract), chemists convert to oil to things such as gasoline, lubricants, plastics and a plethora of other items essential to your life including the plastic fork you probably ate your dinner with last night. Other scientists and engineers developed technology such as the tires you’re riding on, the battery that starts your bike, and all the other parts that make your bike function.





The food you eat comes from farms heavily dependant on fertilizers, pesticides, and technology developed by scientists. Engineers and scientists developed the computer you’re looking at right now and all the other electronic devices we’ve come to know and love.



The earth now holds approximately 6.3 x 10[suP]9 [/suP]people. Without science and technology the human carrying capacity of the earth would be far lower.
 

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twisty wrote:
Goldwinger1984 wrote:
Goldwinger1984 wrote:
I have always used Castol GTX 20W50 in my bikes and never experienced problems at any time, but, when I felt brave and tried to switch to Mobil 1 on two separate occassions I experienced problems in each case (1-blown seal immediately upon cold start, 2-slipping clutch under high load.)

(It's hard to tell any difference in an oil's performance, but, I distinctly recall using a name brand multi grade oil in my boat (350 Chevy engine). Boats are extreme duty engines because of load and RPM. What happened with the oil is that when the engine got hot after an extended run at 4600 RPM upon slow down the valve lifters would clack like crazy until the engine cooled somewhat. To cure this I switched to a single grade 30 weight oil and never heard from the lifters again. I have often wondered what would happen if I did the same with my Wing, but, I'd have to be very careful about cold temperature starts and change the oil to a multi grade when the tempdropped.)

Has anyone here ever trieda straight 30 weight oil in their Wing to check performance?

Vic
Twisty, what is your opinion of using straight 30 weight oil in a motorcycle engine like our Wing?
Vic, in years past that would have been a good option to control oil shearing as a single weight wasn't fluffed out with polymers to obtain a multi-weight rating. In todays oil world you probably wouldn't gain much as most multi-weight oils will easily meet the single weight spec.

The problem with a single weight 30 weight is it would be a little lacking in viscosity at high operating temps & wouldn't perform very well at cold start. The oil companies haven't put much development work into the single weight oils in the past decade so the additive packages probably aren't up to par with the current multi-weights.

I'm not sure why you had problems with the Mobil 1. There isn't anything in that to blow a seal out. ALL modern oil's have seal conditioners in them.As far as the clutch slippage goes, again I can't see where the Mobil 1 effected that. You would be much more likely to get clutch slippage using a modern energy rated oil as most ofthose contain some moly to get the energy rating. (did you use a 5W30 Mobil 1 or one of the other energy rated Mobil 1's?)..

If you are scared of the full PAO synthetics then you might look into one of the 15W diesel rated motor oils as those contain a very hardy well balanced base stock with good anti-wear additives & good high temp viscosity control.

If I didn't run a PAO based synthetic in all my cars, trucks & bikes I would run a 15W diesel rated petroleum oil for sure as those are very shear stable (for a petro based) & have excellent anti wear & anti scuff additives for after storage start-up protection.

Twisty
Twisty, apparently the reason I had a problem with a seal blowing (the seal literally blew out of its seat)when using the Mobil 1 was that synthetic oil has a very connective molecular structure (cohesion)and when cold starting the rush of initial pressure blew the seal out, whereas regular oil when cold takes slightly longer for all the molecules to join together and build pressure. Once normal engine operating temp is reached there is not much difference in the two.

This is a good discussion, but, it will take overwhelming proof to convince me away from good old reliable Castrol GTX 20W50 in my Wing. For the dollar and performance, so far, I haven't found any oil to be better for my needs.

I see guyafter guy spending tons of cash on the synthetics and the only ones that appear to be benefitting are the oil producers.

One would think that all of the vehicle manufacturers would make the switch to synthetic oils to help lower warranty claims if thebenefits were truly that noticable.

Vic
 

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Oil discussion, it never fails!
 

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exavid wrote:
Oil discussion, it never fails!
I know... can't believe I let myself get caught up in this one!
 

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I think it is great stress relief to express our opinions on stuff, even if we have already done so. Like someone on this site already said it is like sitting in a bike shop and having a cold one and talking with your riding buddies. When my friend had a motorcycle shop we used to dissagree on everthing, but it all worked out and the next day none of us cared anyway, we just kept doing it our way with our oil or whatever. I love it.:gunhead:
 

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For what it's worth, I put in synthetic and found things to be a bit noisy and clunky. I changed back to Castrol 20W-50 and it's quieter now.I now change my oil every 3-4000 miles max.

!I have concluded as most everyone else here has that the best thing is to use a good quality motor oil and CHANGE OFTEN. Getting rid of those by products of combustion held in suspension in the oil has to be a primary consideration to longevity and smooth operation.
 

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dean_3326 wrote:
I think it is great stress relief to express our opinions on stuff, even if we have already done so. Like someone on this site already said it is like sitting in a bike shop and having a cold one and talking with your riding buddies. When my friend had a motorcycle shop we used to dissagree on everthing, but it all worked out and the next day none of us cared anyway, we just kept doing it our way with our oil or whatever. I love it.:gunhead:
Well spoken Dean. :clapper:

Vic
 

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mag wrote:
Just changed the oil to Castrol GTX general (non-motorcycle) oil after reading an interesting article from Motorcycle Consumer News 1994 which was based on scientific comparison data.I'msure lots of people have seen this article, but it helped make up my mind. So far the bike loves this oil, and seems happy to get the synthetic blend Motul 5100 outta there..http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm
That is one great article and it changed my thinking about oil for sure but I am using Mobil 1 (motorcycle oil) at the present. Iwill study this article and might be making a change myself to Mobil 1 (non motorcycle).

I read one article about the contaminates that were not refined out of crude and their reaction to moisture that occurs in a cold engine. This was very interesting but I have not been able to find this article. It did convince me to changemy car and truck to synthetic oil.

The article was in a trucking magazine. Maybe someonein the Forumhas a copy?

:jumper::jumper::jumper::jumper:
 

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Thanks Vic for posting the article, this thread is becoming a mine of useful information!

I am beginning to realise that the oil companies are very much "pulling the wool over our eyes" when it comes to motorcycle oil.

I have a further couple of questions for youguys, my 1200 manual says use SE or SF rated 10w 40 Oil. Now I did an oil change last night in fact with Castrol GP 10w 40 SG rated Oil, a standard multigrade for Motorcycles [far cheaper than my usual Castrol GPS semi synthetic]. THe SE , SG rating what do these figures represent? It is clear that SL is a higher rating then SE but I suppose my question is does that make it better for an engine.



BB
 
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