[Goldwinger1984]

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Posted: Sat Sep 24th, 2005 02:45 am





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Hey vic,

Can you read my post a bit further down the main list - re pre-ignition -and offer any suggstions.

Could this be my plugs starting to break down causing the engine to ping when under load.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.








____________________
Al
1988 GL1500 - Phantom Grey
There are several factors that may have changed which could account for the pinging that is there now but wasn't before.

Fuel quality, dirty or plugged fuel jets, incorrect spark plugs or wrong heat range,carbon build up in the combustion chamber, engine operating temperature, as well as, elevation and barometric pressure can contribute to pinging.

Tire pressure if too low causes the engine to work harder, brake calipers which may be seized and dragging could also contribute and increased weight on the bike would all affect the engine's loading on acceleration and may cause pinging. Driving habits can also contribute to pinging if you are lugging the engine.

I suggest that you check all of these items to ascertain that they are all correct and proper and if everything is correct you can try to clean the combustion chambers by running the bike hard or using a combustion chamber cleaner such as G.M.'S Top Cleaner. If this does not help then try an octane booster or switch to a higher octane fuel. If the octane booster or fuelmakes the difference I would suggest that you remove the 4 degree advance wheel and reinstall the stock one even though itmay decrease your fuel economy and performance.

Letting the engine ping on a continual basis can severely damage the engine and lead to very expensive repairs.

Vic

 

[Goldwinger1984]

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Renegade has it right for the most part. Pre ignition is hot metal or carbon ignitingthe fuel/air before the scheduledignition sequencelights the fire.Detonation occurs when excessive heat and pressure in the combustion chamber cause the air/fuel mixture to auto ignite. This produces multiple flame fronts within the combustion chamber instead of a single flame kernel. When these multiple flame frontsmeet, they do so with an explosive force that produces a sudden rise in cylinder pressureand is heard as a sharp metallic pinging or knocking noise. The sledgehammer-like shock waves created by detonationare extremely hard on the head gasket, piston, rings, spark plugs and rod bearings and ifthe pinging is left to go on for more than a fewsecondsitcan actually destroy an engine.

The Gold Wing is a heavy bike that is usually operated at low RPM's which can greatly contributeto carbon build up because the combustion chamber temperature doesn't get hot enough to burn off the excess carbon. If you ad in incorrectly adjusted carbs, leaky valve seals and oil getting past the rings the propensity for carbon build up compounds.

I have seen some Gold Wing cylinder heads that were so carboned up that I had a hard time believing that the engine could run well at all.

G.M.'s Top Cleaner has done a great job for me in the in the past. Jusy go to any General Motor's dealer parts counter and ask for a can of their top cleaner and follow the instructions on the can. NOTE: When you use the Top Cleaner do it someplace where the neighbors won't notice or mind because it does make a lot smoke during the process.

Vic

P.S. Forgot to give you the part number in case the parts person is a newbie, here it is:

GM Top Engine Cleaner , Part No. 1052626.

Basically you run a bit of the Top Cleaner through the intake until the engine starts to run rough, thenrun the engine at 2000 RPM, then pour the cleaner in until the engine stalls. The idea is to soak the combustion chamber with the cleaner ( but don't hydrolock the engine )and let it sit overnight so it can do its job of softening the carbon. The next morning start the bike and watch the smoke as the carbon flies out the exhaust.

Warning: Do not do this in your garageunless you have a monster ventilation system or else you will choke yourself to death from the smoke.

 

[Goldwinger1984]

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Rather than pulling a head to check for carbon you could pull an intake elbow or the exhaust manifold and open the valve ( but don't hit the piston)and use a flashlightto check for carbon, but, I still think that using the Top Cleaner I mentioned above will be a whole lot easier and cheaper. It works if you do it right. See my earlier post for the instructions I added.

Vic

 

[Goldwinger1984]

imported post

Goldwinger1984 wrote:

Renegade has it right for the most part. Pre ignition is hot metal or carbon ignitingthe fuel/air before the scheduledignition sequencelights the fire.Detonation occurs when excessive heat and pressure in the combustion chamber cause the air/fuel mixture to auto ignite. This produces multiple flame fronts within the combustion chamber instead of a single flame kernel. When these multiple flame frontsmeet, they do so with an explosive force that produces a sudden rise in cylinder pressureand is heard as a sharp metallic pinging or knocking noise. The sledgehammer-like shock waves created by detonationare extremely hard on the head gasket, piston, rings, spark plugs and rod bearings and ifthe pinging is left to go on for more than a fewsecondsitcan actually destroy an engine.

The Gold Wing is a heavy bike that is usually operated at low RPM's which can greatly contributeto carbon build up because the combustion chamber temperature doesn't get hot enough to burn off the excess carbon. If you ad in incorrectly adjusted carbs, leaky valve seals and oil getting past the rings the propensity for carbon build up compounds.

I have seen some Gold Wing cylinder heads that were so carboned up that I had a hard time believing that the engine could run well at all.

G.M.'s Top Cleaner has done a great job for me in the in the past. Jusy go to any General Motor's dealer parts counter and ask for a can of their top cleaner and follow the instructions on the can. NOTE: When you use the Top Cleaner do it someplace where the neighbors won't notice or mind because it does make a lot smoke during the process.

Vic

P.S. Forgot to give you the part number in case the parts person is a newbie, here it is:

GM Top Engine Cleaner , Part No. 1052626.

Basically you run a bit of the Top Cleaner through the intake until the engine starts to run rough, thenrun the engine at 2000 RPM, then pour the cleaner in until the engine stalls. The idea is to soak the combustion chamber with the cleaner ( but don't hydrolock the engine )and let it sit overnight so it can do its job of softening the carbon. The next morning start the bike and watch the smoke as the carbon flies out the exhaust.

Warning: Do not do this in your garageunless you have a monster ventilation system or else you will choke yourself to death from the smoke.

I must be getting old because I forgot to mention that you pour the Top Cleaner in through the air filter opening to the intake manifold. Remove the air filter top and element, clean up the area around the base of the air filter housing and pour the cleaner into the intake draft while the engine is running. It's very easy and extremely effective.

Vic

 

[Goldwinger1984]

imported post

Al, sometimes armchair Gurus can get a guy running around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to get a problem diagnosed on his bike. Diagnosing a bike's troubles from a keyboard is easy and fun for the guy giving the suggestions but not so easy for the guy who has to do the actual work, especially if you happen to live in New Zealand where most bike supplies aren't as easy to access as they are in North America.

Trya can of the Yamaha cleaner and clean out the combustion chambers. It won't hurt anything, it's cheap and may help make things right againand changing the oil, filter and plugswon't hurt anything either. With the high cost of fuel and repair coststhese days it may well pay to keep these items clean and fresh. What is the price of a liter of gasoline over there? Over here it ranges in the $1.25 + area presently, but fluctuates up to $1.70./liter.

One thing I forgot to have you check is the condition of the vacuumhoses on your bike. On an '88 there is a possibility that some of the vacuum hoses could be cracked, collapsed, disconnected or swelled. If these vacuum hoses are malfunctioning they can cause air leaks which can lean out the mixture and/or causeother problems as well. I have seen some instances where vacuum lines looked OK when cold but when the the engine warmed up the hose collapsed, closed tight and would not allow the vaccum to release until the engine cooled down again. I have also seen instances where vacuum lines became rock hard and brittle and held the vacuum until full throttle acceleration and a bump in the road caused the vacuum hose to leak. Check over the integrity ofall the vacuum hoses carefully and if any give you an inkling of doubt in regard to their condition replace them with good quality hose designed for this application.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Vic

 

[Goldwinger1984]

imported post

twisty wrote:

alanz wrote:

I've had a 'look' at my vaccuum hoses and they seem to be ok, however, that is only the ones that I can see. As everyone, here, knows they go all over the place and you can't check them all until you pull the bike apart. I will add it to my list. I realise this is going to take some time.

You are right about the supply of parts. The Gold Wing is not the most common bike over here and the parts supply is not good and very expensive. I tend to buy from the US over the Internet but that can take a bit of time.

The cost of fuel here is NZ$1.52 = CAN$1.21 = US$1.03.

So that actually compares pretty well with your prices. We thought we were hard done by because the prices have skyrocketed. Guess it is happening everywhere.

Al, formulating a list is great way to work your way through your problem.. I'm not sure why Vic thinks you are "running around like a chicken with his head cut off" butthat is his opinion not mine. It sounds like you have a good planof action & you are asking plenty of questions so should have a good idea where to look & what to check.

Can you think back to when the problem started? Was anything added or changed around that time? No chance you added a free flowing air filter or something similar?

Is this only a 3000 RPM acceleration problem? Or do you get in in all gears at different RPM roll on's?

Here's something to check into,, the 1200 Wing uses an input to the ign box to allow 4th & 5th gears to use a vacuum signal to control spark instead of a fixed spark curve.. I can't tell you if the 1500 uses the same type system or not.. Maybe someone with a 1500 manual or that has researched the 1500 spark control can shed some light here. IF, your bike has such a system & theign system doesn't see a 4th or 5th gear signal you wouldn't get much spark retard on acceleration in the top gears. (kind of just tossing this out here as I have no idea if the 1500 has such a system or not)..

Twisty

Twisty, since you questionedthe statement I made about running around like a chicken with its head cut off, I just want you to know that itdoes not solely apply to you. I manage, moderate and am Senior Guru at several Gold Wing sites and in my experience I see a lot of misdirection on the parts of well meaning people who genuinely like to help or simply seek to outdo others with the knowledge they think is correct. All of their input is greatly appreciated but not always accurate. In fact I even screw up occasionally, but, I'm not ever afraid to acknowledge and correct my mistakes so that others will have the appropriate facts available to them.

Steve Saunders and I are slowly working towards creating a special section on this site that will contain only 99.9% accurate information regarding Gold Wing specs and maintenance, but, until that comes to fruition I'llneed to make corrections here.

Now don't get offended and please remember that it was me who recomended you for Guru title herebut, this line of your post is the type of misleadingthing that I'm speaking of; Twisty said: "IF, your bike has such a system & theign system doesn't see a 4th or 5th gear signal you wouldn't get much spark retard on acceleration in the top gears.

Yourstatement is not accurate and could create a lot of confusion for a guy working on his Wing for the first time. Your statement could really mislead someone and cause them to spend hours of diagnostic time for no reason and may even persuade them to replace parts that don't need to be replaced.

Maybe you're just exhausted after a hard day and posted the wrong facts, but, still the facts you posted might be believed by some unsuspecting newbie who trusts your Guru title and writing style. To me, that gives this site a bad name because the information proves to be unreliable and I try to work real hard at keepingmaintenance and repair facts accurateon this site.

Perhaps what you meant to state is that the Gold Wing vacuum advance system advances (it does not retard)the ignition timing 11.5 degrees when the gear shift switch is closedin 4th or 5th gear and there is at least 1.2 -2.0 inches of intake manifold vacuum. The internal electronic advancecurve begins at 1500 RPM and gives atotal 33.5 degrees of advance at 3200 RPM. From these facts and using a timing light one could accurately check the ignition timing advance system accurately and be secure in the knowledge that the system is performing correctly as designed. Using your instructions a guy could be running around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to figure why his bike doesn't work right.

Keep up the good work here Twisty, but let's try to get it right as much as possible so we don't have people sayingthey got the wrong info from that so and so Steve Saunders site.


Vic

 

[Goldwinger1984]

imported post

Twisty, in the absense of vacuum or in the absense of a closed electrical circuit in 4th or 5th gears the vacuum triggered advance does not occur. Once the gear switch is closed and vacuum begins, the advance occurs then it can retard the timingwhen intake manifold pressure increases, but, the retard sequence does not occur when you get an electricalsignal in 4th or 5th gear because at that point it is the vacuum signal only that triggers the advance before any retarding can occur. The way you worded your description of the advance sequence makes it sound like the timing retards when the transmission is shifted into 4th or 5th gears. It only retards when intake manifold pressure increases or the trans is shifted to a lower gear other than 4th or 5th.

Maybe you could possibly chalk up the confusionto semantics. It sure would be nice if we could all work together for the same purpose rather than being lone wolf heroes.

Vic

 

[Goldwinger1984]

imported post

Vic,

where did you get the numbers for the total advance. I have a Clymers manual and a Honda Manual for the '88, but I haven't seen those figures - unless I am looking in the wrong place.

I have checked the timing with a strobe light and it is definitely advancing but for all I know it could be advancing way too much.

I have checked the Engine Control Module as per the instruction manual and it says that the engine should begin to speed up when a certain amount of vacuum is applied and then decrease when it gets to a higher level. Mine does that but again I don't know if it is advancing too much. I guess it is likely that it is working ok but without all the right numbers I can't eliminate it completely.

There are so many vacuum hoses in there and most are buried fairly deep inside and not easily visible. Just because the ones I can see are ok I realise that can't be eliminated as a factor either. Would you recommend taking the carbs out and cleaning them out and then that would also give me better access to check all the hoses down there? Is there any particular hoses that would cause the engine to run lean or advance the ignition if they are leaking? (Sorry, realise that is a bit of an open question).

Al, I got those advance figures from a Honda Factory Service manual CD.

Considering the problems you're having it might be wise to go thouroughly go through the carbs and clean and adjust them to factory specs.

Have you checked your timing belts recently?

Regarding the vacuum hoses, any one of them can cause problems because if they are leaking they will introduce extra air into the intake system and lean out the mixture. When checking the vacuum hoses start with one hose, mark it once you know it passes your inspection and move on to the next hose.

Hopefully, Twisty will add his commentary and experienceso that we can help you to get this problem resolved.

Vic

 

[Goldwinger1984]

imported post

alanz wrote:

Ok, thanks for that. I will start working on the hoses and carb when I get home from work, today.

Just going back to the timing, so I get it clear in my head. Vic, you seem to have the numbers - when I put the strobe light on it what should I expect to see. When in neutral and I increase throttle, the timing advances (how many degrees?). Is this done electronically by revs, or by vacuum, or both.

There are 3 stages of ignition timing Al, initial which is built in mechanicallyat about 10 degrees and is present when the engine is not running, then as the engine begins to rev over 1500 RPM the electronically programmed advance curve brings in up to 33.5 degrees total in RPM dependent (low RPM = little advance, high RPM = much advance)increments until maximumelectronic advance is reached at about 3000 RPM.When engine speed falls the advance is removed and the ignition timing retards to coincide with the respective RPM.This advance is totally independent of the vacuum source and functions much like the mechanical advance seen on cars except that it's electronically actuated rather than by weights and springs.

If I did the same thing in 4th or 5th gear will I see a difference with the strobe light?

In 4th and 5th at light throttle opening and light engine loading above 1500 RPM you would be able to see and hear a difference in RPMif you connected and disconnected the vacuum hose that goes to the ECU and controls the the vacuum advance. The easiest way to check this vacuum operated timing is with an adjustable, setback type oftiming light that has a dial which allows you to keep the timing marks on the flywheel lined up with each other. You would not be able to see the timing marks with a regular timing light because the mark wouldrelocate past the timing window. With the setback timing light you line up the marks and read the advance degrees on the dial. You can follow the advance and retard process by turning the dial up and down to keep the marks aligned.

A word of caution though, at 3000 RPM's in 5th gearthe back wheel is spinning very fast and might even be shaking the bike a lot and if it ever jumped off the center stand the bike could conceivably go through a brick wall before it stopped so be extremely careful. It might best if you could locate a shop that has a motorcycle chassis dyno to do this test.

If you can give me some specific numbers or a sequence to run through it would be appreciated. My manual only says to put it into gear and there should be an increase in revs.

See above.

You asked about the timing belt. When I replaced the trigger wheel I had to make sure the belts were lined up properly and they appeared to be in good condition.

That's good news.

Vic