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[align=left]ROSTRA INSTALLATION IN A GL1100I[/align]
Click here to download the PDF install and testing document.
www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/attachment.php?id=35880

EDIT: the original pictures have disappeared, Jim has pdf that contains all of the information.

Rostra Installation Short Version with small pics 8-14-10 (1).pdf



download that file, and you can see the original article with the pictures.





[align=left]Above linked document edited: 8-10-07: No significant changes. Only cleaned up with minor edits.
[/align]
[align=left]A number of people here have expressed interest in installation experience with the Rostra Electronic Universal Cruise Control (250-1223). R Kirby (tricky) has already reported one installation on a GL1200 https://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=12231 although to date, he hasn’t reported any operational experience. I have completed my installation on a GL1100i and have about3000 miles of use (testing) to date and can give relatively detailed summary. I’ll just give an initial version here and if I complete any more tests, I’ll just update this document.

Let me give the bottom line first, for those that don’t want to wade to the end. It is working very well; I’d give it about an A-. Above 50 mph, it works flawlessly and nearly as well as my GMC SUV (edit 10/15/07: and better than my recently acquired GL1500SE). And it works quite well 30 to 50 mph too, almost all of the time, but can get in situations (down hills, wind buffeting in traffic, tail winds) that cause it to uncomfortably correct to decrease speed when it would be a little better to be a little less harsh and let it coast. These, I think, are not unique to this Rostra installation but having to do with more general issues like Power/Weight ratios and a sensitive throttle linkage geometry for this motorcycle that really needs to be addressed to work optimally with a cruise.
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[align=left]Although I did deviate somewhat from the typical motorcycle installation methods that I see on the Internet, I did demonstrate the same method (hooking directly to the short carb #4 linkage) somewhat successfully. I do believe that making the Rostra Electronic work with this short linkage setup is a bit of a crapshoot, and if you are not so lucky, you can find yourself spending a lot of time getting it sorted out. The problem is in how the VSS PPM settings affect gain (and Rostra customer service doesn’t even understand). If you use the magnetic pickup system on a wheel with 6 magnets and set the ppm to 4000, you will coincidentally avoid most of these problems and have a useable cruise, however, if you try to use anything else (like another VSS signal or the tach, or the alternator, etc.) you may find yourself chasing your tail before you find a setting that works.[/align]
[align=left]Physical installation of the Rostra electronic is, I believe, a little bit easier than a vacuum unit since you don’t have to deal with the vacuum lines and canister; the electrical connections are essentially the same. But in many cases you will spend all of the saved time (and then some) getting the unit properlytuned to have satisfactory performance, where, if you believe the glowing reports, the vacuum unit (Audiovox CCS100)appears to bepretty much a hook it up, set it and forget situation. That approach would not have been successful with this ROSTRA electronic installation (and maybe I am overly critical and would not have given a good grade to the Audiovox either). (Makes me want to buy one and do side by side testing, and maybe I will, but that will have to wait, too.).

A few things are left below as highlights, but all of the pictures are in the referenced document, not here.


Here are a few unique points:
LOCATION FOR MOUNTING: Between right bag and wheel attached to bag frame.


WIRE CONNECTIONS.
Gray wire
The gray wire is the Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) input … My choice is at the turn cancel unit connector (White wire with black trace). The VSS signal measures 9350 ppm.
Lt Green wire
The light green wire is the neutral switch wire and is attached to the GL1100i to accomplish both the clutch switch and neutral function.
Blue Wire

Not used but comments included on using the tach/coil signal as an input for the VSS (Gray wire).

THROTTLE LINKAGE, GAIN, TIMERS AND CPU DIP SWITCH SETTING:

Throttle Linkage: Uses 2" radius bar on throttle plate.
Gain, Timers And CPU Dip Switch Setting
Gain (1,2) (Start with LL: Off,Off)
Pulses per Mile(3,4,5,6) (Use 9650 for the ‘83GL1100i: Off,On,Off,On or other as necessary for your application)
it really DOES AFFECT THE DYNAMIC PERFORMANCE …
Engine Setup/Timer (7,8,9) (Start with 8cyl L: Off,Off,Off)
There is more to this setting than meets the eye….
VSS Input (10) (Set to square wave signal; the 83G1100i VSS is square: On)
If you are using the magnets then sine.
Transmission (11) (Set to AUTOMATIC!!! : On)
This is not a transmission switch, just the question: Are you using the neutral wire
Control Switch (12) (Depends on the control switch you get; mine was open: Off)

TESTING AND TUNING

As mentioned, the first ride was not satisfactory using the 1.5� arm, the lowest gain, 9650 PPM setting, the 4 cyl L setup timer. It was much more aggressive than would be acceptable (at least for me). Again, let me digress and say what I mean by aggressive and sluggish: By aggressive, I mean frequent overcorrection by throttle changes that cause acceleration or deceleration not expected and/or are uncomfortable. (This is usually due to too much gain with either proportional and/or derivative terms that are too large.) By sluggish, I mean not correcting as soon as it should allowing slowdowns (and overspeeds) that are not abrupt but interfering and annoying (This is typically caused by not enough overall gain, or too much integral action and or not enough derivative.) In the following discussion, note that there are three things that Rostra provides as parameters (Gain, Setup/timer, and PPM setting), although they don’t officially recognize PPM as a knob to twist. In addition, this installation has provided the length of the control arm as another parameter which is similar but not exactly identical to the Rostra “Gain�

Noting that shortening control arms, selecting higher gain settings, selecting higher timer/setup (meaning a more sluggish vehicle and farther down the list), and selecting higher PPM settings all increase “aggressiveness� (and the opposite selections to make it more sluggish), the tuning experiments began. I add the summary of results here in shart form without discussion, but it should be evident from the chart below how things work. I have also attempted to theoretically calculate a “figure of merit� for each setting based on educatedestimates of the relative mathematical inputs that is normalized so thatideal is approximately 1.00. Higher numbers indicate a more “aggressive� behavior and numbers lower indicate a more sluggish behavior. This should be looked at as more qualitative than quantitative. It is also incomplete as for verification by testing. Your PPM settings, in particular, may be different based on what you use for a VSS signal but what I want to emphasize is that this number is a parameter too, not just an input related to your VSS speed. The column called "Actual/Setting" is the ratio of your actual PPM divided by the selected PPM setting.

The color code is this:

Orange: Not Tested but not expected to yield a good result because too aggressive.
Light Blue: Not Tested but not expected to yield a good result because too sluggish.
Yellow: Not Tested but potentially could yield a good result.
Red: Tested and yielded an unusable result because too aggressive.
Dark Blue: Tested and yielded an unusable result because too sluggish.
Light Green: Tested and yielded a useable result but not the best.
Dark Green: Tested and yielded the best result so far.




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Thanks for the reply! (Wasn't sure anyone was actually reading it... )

I am still working on developing the data for using the Tach or the alternator for the Rostra VSS signal, so I will be back later....

Jim
 

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Excellent Info.

I havnt been able to get many miles in so far this year and was busy installing the external alternator etc etc so havnt been able to finish up with my Rostra, hopefully will get to it before the year is out :(
 

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Great info ,I have made this a stickey thread so it will stay at the top of the forum for a while .thank you of ryou great effort ,,Ciaran
 

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Sandie,

I read thru your article all the way. Not because I need the cruise because I don't, the 1500 has one.

But because I have been there before with two different add on cruise controls in the past. I just wanted to see how your empirical data compared with what I noticed before.

Happy to say, they what you said compares very well with what I remember with the ones I installed more than 20 years ago.

Great article, thanks for sharing.
 

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I got about $220 in it.... 165 for the servo and brains and another 40 for the control switch.. then a few bucks misc and shipping... Jim
 

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Sandie,

I read your article and was very intrested. I have been pondering the idea of installing this type of c/c on my 81. Like you,I am not to crazy about the magnet on the wheel setup for the VSS. The only problem I forsee is that my 81 does not have a speed sensor for turn signals, in that mine does not have auto cancel signals. Although, the wiring diagram does show a speed sensor in the speedo head for use by the air suspension warning system. I was wondering if you had looked at this sensor for use as a signal source. I do have an oscilliscope I could test it with, but getting to a test point without removing the fairing does'nt look possible. If you have not tested, I will, although probably not too soon. Probably a winter thing. Too much good riding weather right now. Keep up the good work. The article was GREAT!!

wilddoug:waving::waving::waving:
 

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I'll look at the wiring diagram tomorrow, but I am not sure that will tell me much. I can say that the VSS signal for the turn signal canceling (for the '83) is, in fact, in the speedometer head (even though I tapped it at the cancel unit) and I would not be surprised to find out that the 82 and 83 speedometers are identical.. probably could check the speedometer part number too... Anyway, keep in touch.

Today was a bit of a failure for the coil signal conditioner... I put what I designed together, hooked it to the power supply and it got hot as a pistol... .. must have hooked something up wrong... as it should not do that..

Jim


edit... just checked.. different part numbers but the VSS part still may be the same..
 

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Jim,

The 82 and 83 speedo heads will have a different part number in that the 82 has an 80mph speedo and the 83 is 150mph. the inner workings may well be the same. I can't imagine Honda not using the same speed sensor for the air pressure and the turn signal cancel system. As a matter of fact, my 81 has the clicker/squawker for the turn signals. Below approx 40mph, the turn signals just click. Above 40mph they make a buzzer sound. The ewd won't show you too much about the speed sensor, just that it is there and there are no specific tests for it in the 81 manual. I'm sure you will work out the problem with the coil adapter. When you are experimenting such as you are, things rarely work smoothly on the first attempt. Keep up the good work. You are making the path for the rest of us easier.

Doug
 

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Doug,

After looking at the 81 Interstate diagram, it appears to me that you have not just one, but two speed sensors in your speedo. One is for the turn signal buzzer which should be the Brown/Red at the turn signal buzzer unit (wherever that is). This appears to be the same kind as on the '83, i.e., just a switchpulsed to ground and any potential comesthrough the buzzer unit (probably 12 volt,but this could be noisy from the buzzer, although it shouldn't be since the buzzer probably works when grounded.. don't know). The second speed sensor (for the air control unit) appears to be powered (+12 back to the fuse box Black/Brown tail light circuit) and is probably sending a pulsed 12 volt signal (through P colored wire (pink?)) that could be tapped at a number of places. I'd be interested in the pulse counts in both of these. Just as a suggestion, if and when you do the pulse count, do a number of wheel rotations because it is probably not an integer number. For the '83, it was somewhere between 70 an 71 pulses for 6 complete rotations; I called it 70.5 which after factoring in the circumference of the tire (about 78.5" if I remember), came out to roughly 9350-9400 pulse per mile.

Jim
 

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Jim,

After putting on my glasses and reviewing the ewd, I could see the two speed sensors. I will try to do a pulse count in the next couple of weeks. I could access the air suspension ecu by removing the shelter, although that is not as simple as it used to be. I added the onboard air compressor system tomy Wing, which makes removing the shelter a little more difficult.The turn signal buzzer is mounted right next to the counterweight between the forks. Probably have to remove the fairing for that. Well, I guess Iwill just have to pick the lesser of two evils and go at it. Thanks for the info, I will get back to you as soon as I do the pulse count.

Doug
 

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Hi sandiegobrass, I read your information on the Rostra Cruise Control installation and printed a copy of it, which is about worn out from reading, rereading, and studying. I also printed a copy of the one R. Kruby (tricky) had on the forum and studied it. I have a 1983 GL 1100A with a California sidecar.
I orderedthe 250-1223 cruise control and a 250-3592 dash mount switch from Brandon Distributing Inc. on September 6, 2007, at a cost of about what you said you paid.I received my order on the 12th. The cruise control was in a sealed package but the dash mount switch had been taken apart, wires cut with splices still attached, and no instructions. I called Brandon Distributing and talked with a fellow that couldn't have been nicer, he listened, apologized, and said a new switch would be in the mail that day. I mailed the used one to him the next day and received a good one about three days later. I guess, sometimes these things happen.
I got sidetracked by several other things I was doing to the GL 1100 and a few things that my wife thought should be done. One of the time consuming projects was wiring in a GL 1500 Rear Speaker Kit so we can have a fader control from front stock speakers to speakers in the sidecar.
While waiting for the cruise control, then more time for the switch, I built the carburetor arm and the bracket for mounting to the fuel filter bolt. I finished the installation of the cruise control yesterday and my son and I tested it today. I didn't do everything like you or tricky. We may make some changes later if we are not satisfied but for now everything seems to be working well with our short time testing.
I mounted the servo unit just as you did, ran the control cable over the top of the shock like yours, but routed the wiring harness with the loom over the shock and along the right frame under the seat, exiting the loom with the lt. green wire to across the back of the frame to the starter solenoid plug. The ground wire, just long enough,is attached to the cross brace bolt on the frame. Extra wire and bulkhead connectors are between the fuel tank and air box. I cut the loom at the corner of fuel tank/air box and used the rest of it around the forward cables up theleft side of the frame. I did take your advice and invested in a brass feeler gage and have used the cut strips with heat shrink to make connections in the plugs. Works great.:clapper:

With my 250-1223 cruise control, I received a separate slip of paper that says:
250-1223, 250-1316, 250-1222 Lost motion built in cruise control no bead chain used.
Did your servo cable slide freely, no resistance, in and out of the cable housing about 2 1/8" (54 mm)? This one does. I mounted the bracket(made from a 2 1/2" corner brace) but I reworked it to put it in backward from the way you did, longend pointed to the left. I clamped the cable housing inthe firsthole from the right with the provided smooth cable clamp and mounted the flag nut to the bracketin the second hole. I did have to slot the holes to get them whereI wanted them. I used your idea, the sliding window lock,(already had three or four of them) attached to the carburetor horizontal armto#4.The cruise cable with the Eyeletconnector is connected directly to the window lock. When attaching the window lock to the arm I first pushed some of the cable into the housing leaving 1 5/8" (41 mm) out. My thoughts, that gives 13 mm of slack before the cruise starts to move the horizontal arm. Later weplan toplay with this setting. When we engage the cruise control and at the same time release the throttle, the speed drops about 4-5 mph then the cruise brings it back to the engaged speed. Duh, hold throttle until you feel cruise take over. :baffled:I have an adjustable control arm made per your instructions but have not used it.

Overall, we are satisfied with the operation. We need to ride more and see how it works on a trip when I follow my son on the GL 1500. The cruise only changed about 2 mph up hills,over,down hills, small hills. The operation was smooth, not abrupt changes or jerky up and down. I was riding in the sidecar part of the time watching the throttle linkage and did not see it constantly moving. I don't think we need to do anything to the accelerator pump linkage.

One thing still confusing me is the installation manual talks about adding beads for slack. Your and tricky's installation, pictures or write-updoesn't look like there is any slack. You may not need slack with the adjustable control arm. My thinking, with the cruise controloperational rangeat 41 mm and our throttle range at 29 mm, if there is no slack we would only be using the first 29 mm of the available cruise control. With slack, there would be cruise control movement before it moved the throttle, therefore, to me, it should be a smoother operation. Any ideas appreciated.

:clapper::clapper::clapper:Thank you for the excellent write up and pictures making my job a lot easier and simpler. I used most of your ideas and installation procedures. I do have pictures and can give you more details if you like.
 

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Wichita Scorpion wro
With my 250-1223 cruise control, I received a separate slip of paper that says:
250-1223, 250-1316, 250-1222 Lost motion built in cruise control no bead chain used.
Did your servo cable slide freely, no resistance, in and out of the cable housing about 2 1/8" (54 mm)? This one does. ...
Yes mine also.. I used the bead chain primarily because of my tight bends.. I thought that there might be some resistance to pushing the cable back in.. This probably was not an issue...

I used your idea, the sliding window lock, (already had three or four of them) attached to the carburetor horizontal armto#4.The cruise cable with the Eyeletconnector is connected directly to the window lock. When attaching the window lock to the arm I first pushed some of the cable into the housing leaving 1 5/8" (41 mm) out. My thoughts, that gives 13 mm of slack before the cruise starts to move the horizontal arm. Later weplan toplay with this setting. When we engage the cruise control and at the same time release the throttle, the speed drops about 4-5 mph then the cruise brings it back to the engaged speed. Duh, hold throttle until you feel cruise take over. :baffled:I have an adjustable control arm made per your instructions but have not used it.

I LOVE the window lock method.. perfect solution... using the short throw doesn't solve the sensitivity issues, but with your extra weight (sidecar) and wind drag, the greater sensitivity may be just fine.. YOu may want to decrease your slack a little to get a quicker engage.... I don't think that the CC actually pulls the cable all the way in at maximum travel, like you have assumed..

.....

One thing still confusing me is the installation manual talks about adding beads for slack. Your and tricky's installation, pictures or write-updoesn't look like there is any slack. You may not need slack with the adjustable control arm. My thinking, with the cruise controloperational rangeat 41 mm and our throttle range at 29 mm, if there is no slack we would only be using the first 29 mm of the available cruise control. With slack, there would be cruise control movement before it moved the throttle, therefore, to me, it should be a smoother operation. Any ideas appreciated.

I don't think that the slack (difference 41 and 29) would contribute much to a smoother operation(but I may be wrong); it is so the servo is not physically limited from full stroke movement. As I understand it the servo has about 17 lb pull.. probably not enough to bend any linkage, but not a good idea to try... more importantly, you might be blowing main cc fuses if you physically limit the servo travel, but this would only happen if the throttle demand is not producing the acceleration and speed.. not likely with the motorcycle.. Neither seems like a big deal to me. I don't need slack because the full throttle movement at my linkage was greater than 41 mm (more like 60mm). Tricky just chose not to include it, which is alright until you break something or blow a fuse.

:clapper::clapper::clapper:Thank you for the excellent write up and pictures making my job a lot easier and simpler. I used most of your ideas and installation procedures. I do have pictures and can give you more details if you like.
Thank you WS!! I am glad it worked for you... There is still more that I intend to do... I have the coil signal filter working and scope tested, but not tested with the cc... fortunately for you an I, we have a VSS...

what switch settings are you using????

I always enjoy pictures!!


Jim
 

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If you eliminate the slack in the cable the delay from setting to the cruise taking up will disappear. On the Rostra installation I put in my truck that's what I ended up doing. The cruise operates just about instantaneously. The slack they are referring to is to make sure the cruise actuator doesn't limit the travel of the throttle arm when you manually open the throttle.
 

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sandiegobrass, I will pull the saddlebag and look at the switch settings, need to be sure anyway. My son and I did change some of them while we were out testing. I think Ihave written downwhat they are but----want to be sure. When we got back we installed the saddlebag to see how the saddlebag mount fits over the cruise control bracket. The sleeve in the saddlebag rubber part is supposed to go against the chrome rack.The sleeve caught on the edge of the cruise bracket and then attempted to bend to the side in the rubber. I was kinda worried about the bolt bending when I saw where you and I placed the cruise mounting bracket. By positioning the cruise bracket while tightening the saddlebag mounting bolt, we were able to get the sleeve to go into the hole in the cruise bracket. Then we just tightened the bolt until the rubber started to spread. This also slightly squeezes the rubber around the cruise bracket. Will have to watch this each time the saddlebag is reinstalled. Will send you some pictures later too.

exavid, my son and Iwere already thinking what you stated. We plan to play with the slack later. :waving:Thanks. I used to fly and sail but now I'm just glad that we have the sidecar so my wife andI can still ride. Getten old is hell but my wife and I don't like the alternative.
Bunch of neat people on this forum andI am happy to be here.:D
 

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WS.... Yes, you lose the spacing that the bushing provides, but a fender washer that istightto the bolt diameter will regain this.... I haven't put a washer in yet.. just draw it up snug, but not to mash the washer.

..and I was also curious if you foundthe pulse count of the Aspencade to be the same as what I had for the Interstate.. I think you have the electronicinstruments whereas I have the mechanical.

As for the location, I still would put it in the same place if I did it again. I was curious about your present opinion.

sdb/Jim
 

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sandiegobrass,Today, after I got my control switch mounted, my wife and I took a ride. When my son andI tested the Cruise Control day before yesterday, I had a tie wrap holding the switch.I am satisfied with how thecruise control is working. We went on a 70 mph divided 4 lane and on one long high overpass the speed dropped going up from 70 mphto 69 mph,then on the downside climbed up to 72 mph. Remember, we have a sidecar attached so we have weight transferred to the bike and the extra weight todrag around.
Switch settings: 1-on, 2-off, (low); 3-off, 4-on, 5-off, 6-on, (9650); 7-on, 8-off, 9-off, (4 cyl low) 10-on, (Sq Wave); 11-off, (Manual); 12-off, (open)
Fender washer is a good idea. Right now it is drawn up snug with the rubber squished just a bit.
At my age the pulse count was running out the plug so fast I couldn't count them.:cool: Actually I don't havethe equipmentto check the pulse count. I worked electronics maintenance (Radar) for 23 years with the USAF but technology is way ahead of me now. I do have the electronic dash.
I also would recommend the placement of the servo where your servoisand I just followed your lead. Thanks for all your work and the write-up.:clapper: Looks the best place to me and the unit looks to be water/dust proof. I do plan to build a backing behind the servo, between the wheel and the servo. Will let you know how that goes. We do ride in rain if it's there when we want to go.
For the control switch, I have the Dashmount. I hate to have to correct manufacturing design flaws. Looking at the switch, the covers did not snap together completely at the top and right side. The circuit board has a round component that is thicker than the space behind it. I had to use my dremel tool to grind away some of the plastic case so everything fit correctly.And the Control Switchfor sure is not waterproof. I coated the back side of the circuit board, along with the wires extending out,with liquid electrical tape. The front has a rubber type cover over it so I coated the edge of the cover and circuit board to seal them together.It allfit together nice and snug then.
I spent most of yesterday afternoon and part of the evening on the switch and building the mounting plate for it. Itmade aneat installation and the buttons are all within range of the left thumb.
Note the pictures, you can see where I dremeled out part of the back cover and the liquid tape on the edges of the switch.
 

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