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I don't think motorcycles are dangerous as I have never had one attack me. Refering to the activity as dangerous implies that the motorcyclist should expect to be hurt.

Motorcycles and motorcyclists are Vulnerable and just as children are vulnerable, society should make extra efforts to protect them. This swings the onus to the traffic in general to consider the vulnerability of the bikes and take the full responsibility of the failures.

Hurting some who is vulnerable is far worse than hurting someone who is doing something dangerous.


$0.02
 

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Good thought. Maybe you should send that to the AMA and other bike organizaion. It might make a good ad campaign by getting the Cagers to think about their responsibility to prevent injuries to others
 

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A handful of years ago, a group I'd ride with every now and again would make the Friday night trip into Old Town Alexandria (in Northern Virginia) and cruise up and down King Street a few times. Cars, bikes, ladies, etc., ...

An older fella (65ish) who would ogle at all our bikes convinced himself, with much help from said group mind you, to go out and buy himself a brand new Sportster. Well this guy hadn't been on a moving bike by himself since 1974... He would show us pictures of himself on a small 2-stroke Yamaha street-bike of some sort, I can't recall what model it was.

With no preparation of any real substance, no riding time, and no real encouragement to do anything else,... he was riding.
So, in his first week of proud new ownership, I decided to ride with 'em all on a 'round town excursion for 'ol Glen to get accustom to his shiny new Sportster and build-up some riding time for himself with the protection of the group.
So,with all of us (about 10 if I remember right) stopping at a gas station for mostwho hadn't already filled-up, we all lined-up for the grand exit of the first fill-up. The bikes were kinda staggered coming off the apron with Glen kinda in the middle and I at the back. Seems the closer someone was to Glen, the more excited they were for, and with, him.

Anyway, pipes were roaring, clutches starting to engage, cats were creeping forward, and then it happened:

'Ol Glen kinda dumped the clutch for some reason. Ran right into his buddy in front of him who was riding his Deuce. The joker behind Glen, not paying attention to anything other than pipe noise proceeds to take-off right into Glens Sportster.
Twoof the three go down. Glens Ego and Pride were ripped to shreds. Nobody was hurt.

I kinda saw something coming. You know, that feeling of impending failure when things just don't seem successful and somethings gotta change or else.

Sometimes the Dangerous create the Vulnerability.


Edit: This is not a brand issue either....
 

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I don't think motorcycles are any more dangerous than a lot of other things I do. I do think there are a lot of hazards. Car drivers are one of the bigger hazards we, as riders, have to deal with. It should be presented as such in MC 'safety' classes.

Children have no choice in the matter of being born. Nor do they have any choice of parents. We do have the choice in riding. In most places this requires a license that is above that of a car drivers license. Plus it requires a skill and competency level that is above that of a car driver.

The amount of bad drivers, I've seen, 'out there' tells me there is a serious flaw with the whole 'Drivers Education' thing. Are we vulnerable to road impact? Maybe so. But lumping us into the 'must be protected' group of people? I don't agree with this.

This sends a message that hazardous (dangerous) behavior is acceptable as long as certain people don't get hurt. Well I don't buy that. Hazardous behavior is not acceptable. I would shift the whole thing over to the road hazard. Like is happening now with the cell phone/texting thing.


Distracted driving a "menace to society" (more here), I'm liking the way this is going. We should be jumping on this.
 

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Hmmm.....I think it's all BS. Why? We started longed ago buying into this "I didn't see him" malarky. We gave the cagers an out from day one. An excuse for not paying attention and doing other things while driving. They see you, and they see you just fine.......they simply do not give a crap that you are there. There are NO consequences. The cager is in is safe comfortable environment.......and you are smaller and not a threat.......you simply do not register as meaningful. What happens to a cager if he runs a stop sign and kills you? Most cases.......a little fine. The soccer mom with her cell phone shoved in her face and bitching about her nail job to her best friend faces no real consequences for rear ending you on your bike.



I can prove this to anyone on this board. I've commented on this before, and any of the AZ residents can actually try this experiment on their own.



The baseline: Drive through any town in AZ. Chandler, Phoenix, Tucson, Sierra Vista.......doesn't matter. Preferably with a passenger who can make notes while riding. Make a note of every instance where a cager does something dangerous to you. Changing into your lane, left turning, following to close, etc. Do this for a week.



The experiment:

Strap a large caliber handgun to your hip. Open carry in/on a motorized vehicle in AZ is perfectly legal. Make the same drive at the same times as the baseline. Make a note of the same instances.



You will be amazed at the results. Somehow, a cager can't see a 900lb goldwing, orange safety vest, and modulated headlight from 30 yards.......but they can see that handgun from 2 miles away.



Why? They see you all along.......since you don't register as a threat, you are discounted. However, the presence of the firearm flips a switch in the cager's brain.......you go from the "none threat" to "threat category", and consequently become actively monitored.



Solution? Unfortunately, there isn't one. I imaging if we started pulling the cagers out of their cars and beating the crap out of them......eventually they'd learn........but unlike killing us........beating them up is a felony.



For myself.......when I do any kind of long ride in AZ..........I carry. Everybody else is welcome to their own solution.
 

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nobbie wrote:
. . . motorcyclists are Vulnerable and just as children are vulnerable, society should make extra efforts to protect them. This swings the onus to the traffic in general to consider the vulnerability of the bikes and take the full responsibility of the failures. . . . . .
:shock:. . . . . . I guess I just don't have the hang of the socialism thing yet . . . . :shock:
 

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Wingnumberone wrote:
nobbie wrote:
. . . motorcyclists are Vulnerable and just as children are vulnerable, society should make extra efforts to protect them. This swings the onus to the traffic in general to consider the vulnerability of the bikes and take the full responsibility of the failures. . . . . .
:shock:. . . . . . I guess I just don't have the hang of the socialism thing yet . . . . :shock:
...You aint alone Chief...
 

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CaptainMidnight85 wrote:
Wingnumberone wrote:
nobbie wrote:
. . . motorcyclists are Vulnerable and just as children are vulnerable, society should make extra efforts to protect them. This swings the onus to the traffic in general to consider the vulnerability of the bikes and take the full responsibility of the failures. . . . . .
:shock:. . . . . . I guess I just don't have the hang of the socialism thing yet . . . . :shock:
...You aint alone Chief...
Oh....I don't think it is 'Socialism' nobbie is trying to get across. In his own way, IMO, I think he is attempting to make a point about personal responsibility. It just isn't coming off like that. To paint us as poor vulnerable creatures isn't going to make that point. All that will do is cause people to think were all mentally ill for wanting to ride them in the first place......bad idea.
 

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I have well made my wife aware of all of the idiots riding our streets around here. It's gets really stupid when I see it happening way before it does and she just is astounded by all of them.

The other night, I was in a bad mood already from almost being ran over twice in a time period of three minutes before I got home and we got in the cage to go buy groceries. On the way to the store, I would point out what the idiots were about to do and she would laugh until they did. This ranges from idiots merging into traffic when there is no room and they should have put on their brakes to stop instead of just using the side of the road until they were ready to just force their way to just not looking and merging anyway. I pointed out almost five different situations where someone was going to be an idiot and do something and they never let me down!!

Why did I do this for her, to show her it doesn't matter if it is a car, bike, or motorcycle, the idiots will kill someone in a hurry with either their cell phone in their ear or just not giving a flip because they cannot afford to wait the two seconds it would have required for them not become the problem but to merge safely into traffic.

I agree 100% that there is a problem with the way people receive their drivers license. Not many even take drivers education and the ones that cause the most trouble are "Multitasking" while trying to talk on the phone more than drive the 2 ton car or truck they are behind. I normally say legislation is not how to change things, but in this instance, I see no other way than to start issuing very large fines and jail time for someone that has a lapse of concentration when behind the wheel of a vehicle and runs over someone other than just having their insurance go up on them!
 

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I agree, this isn't a car vs motorcycle thing, as much as it is there are to many people that do not belong behind the wheel of a car.....period. Here, I am presuming most folks that went to school took Drivers Ed, it is (or was) offered in high school and the for profit driving schools are all booked up......same with the MC classes too. This is why I have my doubts as to the effectiveness of these programs.

There is other stuff too. Construction projects and the 'Motorcycles use Extreme Caution' signs. Nothing worse that seeing one of these, as you turn onto the highway on ramp. Of course I have no idea what the road hazard is, or where it is. This sign must absolve them of any wrong doing. Steel manhole covers, in a roundy-round lane. This place has gone nuts with tar strips. We've got places where these hazards are well over a foot and a half wide. These are more 'motorcycle issues'.

I have ran over (in the jeep) cross cuts, at least 6" deep by 2 foot wide, in the pavement that would have unhorsed a rider. With no warnings of any kind. As it was I took the jeep in, to see if the front end was banged out of alignment.

Even so, if these clods get hammered for driving unfocused, this is fine with me and a good start. What other solution is there? Anything I could do would land me in the bucket. So, it is on the government to solve this. If they can force me to wear a helmet, they can come down on these scumbags too.
 

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My point wasn't socialism but rather the admission of guilt by the riding communityin accepting that what we do is dangerous.

If I take a corner too fast and wreck then I am dangerous and that goes for any vehicle.

If someone runs into me then THEY are dangerous not me, just because I am on a bike.

I get tired of hearing the press insinuate that when a rider is hurt that it should be expected because he was riding a bike. I just want to get rid of that presumption of guilt.

We can be our worst enemies at times if one looks at the antics of some of the squids, zoom-splats, crotch rockets or whatever you call them.
 

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nobbie wrote:
My point wasn't socialism but rather the admission of guilt by the riding communityin accepting that what we do is dangerous.

If I take a corner too fast and wreck then I am dangerous and that goes for any vehicle.

If someone runs into me then THEY are dangerous not me, just because I am on a bike.

I get tired of hearing the press insinuate that when a rider is hurt that it should be expected because he was riding a bike. I just want to get rid of that presumption of guilt.

We can be our worst enemies at times if one looks at the antics of some of the squids, zoom-splats, crotch rockets or whatever you call them.
Common sense dictates that riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car. Who riding a bike would think otherwise? That's a mute point, really.

I'm certain we know when we're at fault and when we're not. Each individual knows his (orher) own truth in a given circumstance of guilt or innocence, despite what comes out of their mouth.

If someone on a bike pulls into traffic in a way that most of us would not, then ends up paying a price for doing so, I'd say that individual should've known better, and is quite possibly at fault, and deservingly so.

A rider should expect to get hurt when involved in a accident. The amount of "safety talk" on this forum alone would lend evidence that most here are, at the very least, prepared for the possibility of getting hurt when involved in accident. If the media takes a stance that riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a automobile, then their presumption would be accurate as common sense dictates that a enclosed vehicle is by far a safer mode of transportation. Are we guilty of violating common sense? The quick answer is Yes.

"...if one looks at the antics of some of the squids, zoom-splats, crotch rockets or whatever you call them." .... What about the antics of some of the whales, potamus' and goldwings or whatever you call them? Putting labels on our own people aint gonna make the roads safer. Give that old jacket, or extra pair of boots, or helmutt #4 to a "whatever you call 'em", cause he (or she) could probably use it, and the fellowship you both might encounter. Don't worry about the BS news, solve the problem.

The public in general thinks that You, I and the other 24,000 people here are crazy for getting out there and riding with them crazy damn drivers in the first place. Society will make no extra efforts for You, I and the 24,000 other crazy motorcyclists here who choose to get ourselves into trouble when tangling with automobiles. It is that simple. Motorcycling is dangerous.

To play it out like you stated opening the thread, the government is better off prohibiting and banning motorcycling in the good 'Ol USofA to protectus from ourselves.

Change may be coming, but I'll take Hestons way anyday.
You'llhave to pry that grip from my cold, dead hand.
Edit: Ooops...
 

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nobie, I get where you're going with this and I applaud your thoughtfulness and desire to change things. I think you are looking for some sort of label, program, set of new laws, etc... that would somehow change the public psyche toward motorcyclists.

But the people that look to motorcycling with disdain just don't get it and nothing we do will change that.

Let's face it, riding a motorcycle IS more dangerous then riding in a car. And to many people, the added risk is not worth it (not us right?? ;) ).

Anyone who climbs on a 2 wheeler and sets out onto the public roads must acknowledge and accept the added risk of our sport/activity. And anyone who doesn't is fooling themselves.

Do we need to campaign for MC awareness? Absolutely!! And more of it!!

I saw someone mention better construction procedures and signage with motorcycle in mind. Well HELL YES!

Do we need to push for full prosecution for those 4 wheelers who break the traffic laws and hurts us? DAMN RIGHT!!

But I don't care to be classified as "vulnerable". The SOB (or B) that cuts me off, classify him as vulnerable if he doesn't run me over.

I think everyone needs to purchase their AMA memberships and make sure to communicate to them the issues that are important to you. Then they can advocate for all of us to the State & Fed governments on our behalf.

You make some great points, we just have a slightly different twist on things...

Safe and happy riding!! :action:

JB
 

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Semantics. Riding a motorcycle is dangerous because the rider is more vulnerable. Not to mention riding a motorcycle is dangerous if you're a show off doing wheelies on the highway in traffic. A motorcycle rider is vulnerable because of his own behavior, and is vulnerable to other driver's inattention. Driving a car is dangerous but not as much so because the automobile offers more protection from the results of their own errors or those of other drivers. It doesn't matter what you call it, you gotta ride like they're all out to get you and resist those hot rod impulses we all have from time to time. Be honest now, do you drive your car like you ride your bike? I'll be not.:cooldevil: I have to watch myself to prevent riding too agressively in traffic.
 

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DougW wrote:
Good thought. Maybe you should send that to the AMA and other bike organizaion. It might make a good ad campaign by getting the Cagers to think about their responsibility to prevent injuries to others
Actually, the AMA currently has a campaign titled "Justice for all" the uses the specific terminology of "vulnerable road users". That includes motorcyclists, bicyclists, pedestrians, anyone who is more vulnverable on the road.
 

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CaptainMidnight85 wrote:
Common sense dictates that riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car. Who riding a bike would think otherwise?




While I understand what you are saying, I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. All things being equal, riding should not be inherently more dangerous than any form of transportation. I should have an equal chance of someone hitting mewhether I'm on my 800 pound bike or in my 5000 pound car. Risk of injury in the event of an accident may be higher, but that risk can be mitigated as well (although not eliminated). It may be semantics, but I'm a firm believer that using the right words to describe things does make a difference. Riding may incur a higher risk of injury, but I don't believe it's inherently more dangerous.



Overall, I have to say that motorcycles are more vulnerable, but not more dangerous. It's inattentative/inexperienced/careless drivers that are dangerous whether they are behind the wheel of a mammoth SUV, a high-powered sportbike, or a GoldWing.


Let me add that this is my opinion. This does not make your opinion wrong and mine right, it just makes them different.
 

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I think Bish has a pretty valid point. I think a lot of drivers choose to ignore the law when there are no consequences to pay.

adios

fast black
 

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If you're a congressman, you can run a stop sign doing 70 in a 55, striking and killing a motorcyclist, and get 100 days in jail:



http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/22/janklow.sentencing/



Or, if you happen to be a Tennessee state senator, you can turn left in front of a motorcyclist, killing him, leave the scene of the accident and get indicted for hit and run. Then you get a highway named after you (second item):



http://www.deadlyroads.com/believeitornot.html



The AMA is trying to get tougher laws enacted:



http://www.amadirectlink.com/justice/
 

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garyft wrote:
If you're a congressman, you can run a stop sign doing 70 in a 55, striking and killing a motorcyclist, and get 100 days in jail:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/22/janklow.sentencing/

Or, if you happen to be a Tennessee state senator, you can turn left in front of a motorcyclist, killing him, leave the scene of the accident and get indicted for hit and run. Then you get a highway named after you (second item):

http://www.deadlyroads.com/believeitornot.html
I don't care how you say it. That's just plain wrong!

:cussing:
 

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garyft wrote:
CaptainMidnight85 wrote:
Common sense dictates that riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car. Who riding a bike would think otherwise?
I must provide the following rebuttle:
All things being equal, ... but they're not

Respectfully, of course. :)
 
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