Steve Saunders Goldwing Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 12 of 12 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
79 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
imported post

Man! When it rains, it pours don't it? I went in to change my timing belts and when I got there I found that the right cam gear timing mark has been changed. Has anyone ever seen this, or is this someone who wasn't familiar with how the right gear has to be held in the correct timing position before mounting the belt?
The left side appears to be lined up on the original mark, but the right is off by what appears to be somewhere in the neighborhod of two teeth! Think this might be why this bike sat for 18 years? Any input is appreciated.
Don
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
475 Posts
imported post

the timing mark should be on the timing cover/case, adjacent to each cam pulley wheel
 

·
Senior Guru
Joined
·
2,234 Posts
imported post

It would affect intake manifold vacuum which would make balancing the carbs very difficult. Line it back up properly and let us know how it runs. Hopefully the internal components haven't rusted after sitting for 18 years.

Change the oil before you start the engine and crank it over (intermittently)for several minutes with the kill switch in the off position to spread some fresh oil around inside.

Hoping for good news from you.

Vic
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
79 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
imported post

Vic,
Thanks for your input! Finding the timing mark off on the right side cam gear actually has shed some light into a very dark corner of the room as far as this bike is concerned. I had earlier suspicions that someone with little knowledge of GoldWings had been puttering around in this engine and it goes a long way toward explaining why this bike with less than 8k miles showing on the odometer would have been allowed to sit for so long a time. Someone most likely became frustrated from lack of knowledge and gave up the ghost because of it.
One of the first things I did was to pull the plugs and fill the cylinders as much as possible with WD-40 and soak before I even attempted to turn it over. To my surprise, it seemed to turn over with relative ease. My next move was to drain the crankcase and refill with fresh oil before going any further. It was at this point that I discovered that not only the fuel tank, but the entire fuel system, carbs and all were trashed with rust in the tank and varnish in the float bowls. A mummified cigarette was found in the intake and the mixture of nicotine and gasoline were just adhesive enough to sieze the throttles so completely, that both #1 & #3 carb butterflies had to be disassembled (past the bradded screws) just to clean them to the point of free movement. After properly replacing the timing belts and reassembling the fuel system and carbs, it is my plan to check the compression in each cylinder. Barring no unexpected surprises, I will substitute one quart of MMO with the remaining new oil in the crankcase just for the initial startup and warmup, then drain and replace oil again with filter before running the engine for any length of time.
Thanks again for your input, and I'll keep you posted on my progress!
Don :waving:
 

·
The Irish Crew
Joined
·
3,932 Posts
imported post

Actually it isn't unusual on the GL1100 for the right cam pulley to be off by one tooth, right out of the factory. Yours is off by one tooth, not two. If youturn the engine so that toe left pulley is slightlypast the mark as well (half a tooth) the right one will be only half a tooth off as well and this is well within acceptable limits.Mine was like this and the belts had never been changed in the 17 years by the one previous owner.

If you decide to adjust the belt, you might find that when you adjust it and bring the pulley back up one tooth it will be still off the mark, except above it instead of below.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
79 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
imported post

Actually it isn't unusual on the GL1100 for the right cam pulley to be off by one tooth, right out of the factory. Yours is off by one tooth, not two.
FitzAl,
Thanks for correcting me on the number of teeth, my confusion led me to mild exaggeration! LOL
Now I'm really confused... are you saying that I need to leave the timing as it is, because that's as close as it gets... or are you saying that I need to set it to the original mark and check to see if, as you say the mark will move above it instead of below it? What I guess I'm most confused about is why did they re-mark the right cam gear instead of just leaving it as is and setting it in close proximity of the originally intended position?
Did your cam gear pulley exhibit "new" marks or was it set by the original marks in close proximity? My pulley as the picture reveals was not only stamped, but also marked with what appeared to be Dykem (machinist's marking fluid). The picture reveals the pulley as it first appeared to me and was not retouched for purposes of illustration.
I was told by an old time Honda mechanic that after the left belt was mounted and idler inplace with the marks properly aligned, that the right cam pulley would require manual repositioning in order that the marks on the right be aligned accordingly, before mounting the right timing belt. This is most likely due to the pressure of the valve springs on the lobe of the cam causing it to "roll" slightly out of position, when the left cam was correctly aligned. If my thinking is flawed, I'd sure like to be enlightened.
As always, thanks for your input FitzAl!
Don :)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
596 Posts
imported post

It appear to be in correct time as it sits in the photo. The lower mark is not a timing mark, the resident Mech Engineer (wife) is sitting here looking at the pix and says its a nick in the pulley. That sort of thing that happens when pulleys are dumped in a bulk bin and one pulley strikes another on the edge. I count 7 or 8 nicks on that side of the pulley.

The cam timing marks are raised, not indented. Look at the (blue) arrow, not the marks on the pulley. Its possible to drop a pulley and dent it, but not possible to drop one and create a rasied feature- that takes added material. So indentations are not reliable timing marks by design.

The original marks are coloured with the same dye as you see behind the pulley (inspection dye, behind the pulley and beside the brown glue spot). The timing may appear to be off by one tooth but that is due to the viewing angle of the photo being ABOVE the cam centerline, it must be viewed dead even with the horizontal center of the cam shaft. Lie on the floor with your eye (or camera) level with the marks to get a true picture of alignment. Viewing from above makes the mark appear to be low.

The cam PULLEY TOOTH is being aligned, NOT THE BELT TOOTH. The center of the pulley tooth is what the arrow points to, not the edge of a tooth.

Notice the "UP" printing is rotated a bit CW. That legend should be basically straight up. If the lower indentation were the true timing mark, the "UP" would be rotated further CW and that wouldnt be correct. But also realize the legend is not a timing mark, its only good for an indication of gross error (pulley on upside down or cam grossly out of time). The "UP" marks are used to set the crank position to the correct 180* phase without having to use the crank wheel marks.

Notice that the angular displacement of the "UP" legend is a few degrees off vertical, but the printing is not rotated (same with the "R" mark, its below center, but sits dead horizontal). This was changed in the 1200s by moving the position of the lightening holes so the "UP" was dead vertical at correct alignment.


CHECK 1: The critical factor here is valve to piston clearance. If the belt is off too far, piston hits valve. Remove the belt and slowly rotate the cam each way and see how many "teeth" the pulley goes before interference (feel the cam pulley stop). Hold the ratchet near the head so as to not place force on the valve stem when it hits - remember, the valve will see Torque = Force of your hand x Distance of the ratchet handle. As I recall the 1200 was 3 teeth before interference.

CHECK 2: Compare the blue arrow to the reinforcing boss in the cover behind the cam pulley, are they in line? That boss should be dead horizontal. I mention this because I dont see a clearly defined alignment mark on the outside of the case, it may be hidden behind the pulley in the photo.

Compare that to where the blue timing mark is. Should be several teeth rotation between timing alignment and interference.

I varied the cam timing on my first 1200 a few teeth, made no noticeable difference in performance.


There is no reason for them to be off any # of teeth. These gearbelts can maintain the same precision alignment as a steel gear/chain set. Only way they will be off is either a.) not installed correctly b.) belt gone slack and jumped a tooth.

Jumping a tooth is unlikely. I just worked on an 84 that had the original belts with about 3/4 inch free play (incredibly loose, should be zero) that was still in time. The belt force is due to the valve springs and thats an impulse load. The average horsepower on the belt is so low that itll tolerate running with a very loose belt and not jump. Not that its a good idea...

Hondas Mech engineers are gods of the mech world and they dont make grade-school errors like getting a cam pulley off a tooth. They may be inept at electrics, but NOT at mechanics.

PS From what youve told me about your engineering background, Id recommend you trust your instincts more than you are... you aint no dummy.
 

·
The Irish Crew
Joined
·
3,932 Posts
imported post

Dave, The lower mark isn't a nick caused by damage, all the GL1100s have this mark e3ven though its not the timing mark. The timing mark is the one with the arrow and blue paint. It's as close as it gets on the 1100.

Don, The pulleys can't be rotated without moving the cams as well as they are connected by a woodruff key. The timing on your bike is fine judging by the picture and is not related to the running problems.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
596 Posts
imported post

FitzAl wrote:
Dave, The lower mark isn't a nick caused by damage, all the GL1100s have this mark e3ven though its not the timing mark. The timing mark is the one with the arrow and blue paint. It's as close as it gets on the 1100.
OK, I C. hadnt seen it on 1200 but thats a different engine.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
79 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
imported post

Man! You guys are indispensable! I really appreciate your points of view.

Dave,
I did find these belts to be pretty loose, but maybe not uncommonly so for their age. I guess I am getting a little punchy trying to figure out why this bike sat for so long... go figure, huh?
I did try and get the photo from as level an angle as I could manage trying to represent the perspective with some degree of accuracy. I do get what your saying about the raised mark vs. the indentation although it is curious why they both have identical symmetrical markings at 180 degrees, most likely machining/manufacturing reference points??

FitzAl,
Good to know, I was wondering if the pulley was keyed. I thought it would almost have to be. Your insight is invaluable, proving once again that there is just no substitute for experience!
Thanks guys!
:clapper:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
596 Posts
imported post

dat7 wrote:
I guess I am getting a little punchy trying to figure out why this bike sat for so long...

curious why they both have identical symmetrical markings at 180 degrees, most likely machining/manufacturing reference points??
The usual reason they sat parked is because a.) they started running so badly due to electrical problems that they parked them b.) parked out of fear of stator failure. Talked with lots of Goldwingers who stated those reasons.

If a pulley die had a defect then it would appear in all of them. Or, that mark might be in just the right place to be a timing mark (TDC). Running the pulley a bit further CW could put it at TDC?
 

·
Postpubescent member
Joined
·
36,382 Posts
imported post

dat7 wrote:
I guess I am getting a little punchy trying to figure out why this bike sat for so long...
Don't discount the possibility that someone had a good scare on the road and parked it. I bought an airplane once that had been sitting for three years because the guy got caught on top with a VFR panel, spun down through the clouds and recovered near the ground. He never flew again as far as I know. Some folks have a limit on the amount of fun they're willing to experience.

:waving:
 
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top