[DriverRider]

So what is a "closed" plenum? Let's say all four runners are hooked to pumps of equal draw. The carb is a hose pouring water in close to two runners. Each pump has a bucket at the outlet. Do you really think the two pumps furthest away away from the flow will fill as fast as the two closest? They can't by the way.

By its very nature a 4bbl carb on an automobile cannot be perfectly centered over an intake. With the small primaries up front and large (heavy throttle) secondaries opening in back the only way to truly center would be one large barrel yet the engine will run fine, always take a clue from Detroit with what they do.

 

[AZgl1800]

are we staying on topic?

 

[CaptainMidnight85]

are we staying on topic?

Man ...I'm getting the feeling another "TOP SPEED CHALLENGE" is coming to life.

...how about you?

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[CaptainMidnight85]

But yes, it has drifted.
I believe it can get back to the light it owns.

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[slabghost]

free ride? Are these posts not meant to help others achieve the desired goal? 73 pages and 721 posts espousing the merits of a single carb conversion and now we decide that it should remain a mystery? Sir if you really are willing to help one like myself then why not all? The information you've posted seems suspect at best from the reading I've done thus far. Perhaps you are mystified by the results other have posted using a similar carb or the exact same carb on totally home made manifolds. If you are unwilling or unable to share information then I fail to see the purpose of your posts?

 

[slabghost]

By its very nature a 4bbl carb on an automobile cannot be perfectly centered over an intake. With the small primaries up front and large secondaries in back the only way to truly center would be one large barrel yet the engine will run fine, always take a clue from Detroit with what they do.

True enough but how many were installed by detroit on 4 cylinder motors? V6 and V8 motors had larger plenums and were as centered as they could be. Have you ever seen a stock 4bbl manifold that placed the carb closer to one bank of cylinders than the other?

 

[CaptainMidnight85]

The conversion works as described in this thread.

The only merit to the adapter is the ability for the carburetor to retain the electric choke. That merit comes at a price though.

Your understanding of my manifold (which is not the manifold described herein) is something I can help you with.

You can help yourself by contributing the personal experience of building this conversion and then using it.

This thread is meant to show you how.


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[slabghost]

You still persist in evading the questions. Some of us have ideas and like to know the why of things in order to improve on the how. If you are unwilling to speak of your set up then why not speculate on the specifics of westgl's set up? It was he after all who started this thread. Anyone can make a serviceable assembly now with the type 4 plenum. Some tubing and a decent choice of carburetor. Many already have. More still are in process of doing so. This use of off the shelf items is great for those that just want it simple and have it work. But even they want it to work "right" so why not discuss the variables? The effects of given size runners is pertinent to the equation and can have a big impact on the performance. Stock carbs are situated approximately 5" from the intake valves and the intake horns serve as plenum and runners. They are approximately 1 3/8" id . Maintaining so large internal diameter and placing the carb almost 3 times distant. Maybe 4. Can only slow the charge which will increase throttle response time and reduce the force of the charge available when the intake opens. Which reduces the amount of fuel mix each cylinder receives and the power that charge will produce. Perhaps that is why shovelking's set up has good idle and throttle response?
Using the adapter raises the level of the carb in relation to the floor of the plenum which is a good thing as you've already stated. It is my belief that centering the charge is also a good thing so why do you state now.The only merit to the adapter is the ability for the carburetor to retain the electric choke.

 

[CRAFTMAN600]

Wow...

 

[CaptainMidnight85]

Wow...

Exciting, is it not? A rare value.
I'll be able to give a disected and final response shortly so that we can continue with information related more directly to this conversion. I've commitments to deal with right now and will post a final response soon.


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[slabghost]

Exciting, is it not? A rare value.
I'll be able to give a disected and final response shortly so that we can continue with information related more directly to this conversion. I've commitments to deal with right now and will post a final response soon.


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Take your time formulating what you feel may be the proper response. I figure you are still cogitating the questions I posted earlier so if you have any answers feel free to include them. When you figure out what information more "directly applies to this conversion" than the questions I've posed feel free to let us know.

 

[CRAFTMAN600]

I

going to bed now.. have a great day . the life of a trucker. sleep is weard

 

[slabghost]

Stock type 1 vw runner tubing to single port heads is 27 mm. It seems to me that should deliver full flow from your chosen carburetor handily. The runners should be opened to fit to the lip of the plenum to assure smooth transition or an outer sleeve put on to fit them properly. If you plan to use the stock intake horns the outside diameter will need to be 37-38 mm to fit snugly and seal properly.

 

[CaptainMidnight85]

You still persist in evading the questions. Some of us have ideas and like to know the why of things in order to improve on the how. If you are unwilling to speak of your set up then why not speculate on the specifics of westgl's set up? It was he after all who started this thread. Anyone can make a serviceable assembly now with the type 4 plenum. Some tubing and a decent choice of carburetor. Many already have. More still are in process of doing so. This use of off the shelf items is great for those that just want it simple and have it work. But even they want it to work "right" so why not discuss the variables? The effects of given size runners is pertinent to the equation and can have a big impact on the performance. Stock carbs are situated approximately 5" from the intake valves and the intake horns serve as plenum and runners. They are approximately 1 3/8" id . Maintaining so large internal diameter and placing the carb almost 3 times distant. Maybe 4. Can only slow the charge which will increase throttle response time and reduce the force of the charge available when the intake opens. Which reduces the amount of fuel mix each cylinder receives and the power that charge will produce. Perhaps that is why shovelking's set up has good idle and throttle response?
Using the adapter raises the level of the carb in relation to the floor of the plenum which is a good thing as you've already stated. It is my belief that centering the charge is also a good thing so why do you state now.The only merit to the adapter is the ability for the carburetor to retain the electric choke.

Now that my day is finished participating as a team member building Fire Trucks one at a time, I can answer your post. You seem to think I've nothing else to do but wait on you? Rest assured that my time involved with building the Worlds Best Fire Trucks proves more important in my life than your questions here. But ...now that I have the time available;

You still persist in evading the questions.

What questions do you have of this particular conversion that are evading you?
Your questions pertain more to my manifold than this one.
Which is it? My conversion, or the conversion chaptered in this thread?

Some of us have ideas and like to know the why of things in order to improve on the how.

Exactly. I too have this same thirst.
Unfortunately, the information available at the time I decided to assemble my conversion was inaccurate, misrepresented and steered towards capitalistic ends that were monopolized for the marketing of another.
"Some of us" saw the need for improvement and it is my contention that this thread is a result of that thirst.
The conversion presented in this thread is not about you, me or any other individual in particular. The conversion in this thread is meant for all who want a successful conversion in their first attempt at constructing one based on the information provided. The information provides for the parts list and construction principles proved to be successful out of the gate, which is something that was not afforded to me or anyone else some years ago when I wanted it to be there. I don't recall you helping me achieve my goal in any way, then or up to now. I do believe that continued insistence for answers gives this thread more prominence in any light.

If you are unwilling to speak of your set up then why not speculate on the specifics of westgl's set up?

I'm perfectly willing to speak of my conversion, but in only so much detail. In any event, this is not the thread for it. Due to a particular individual having direct association with a particular Honda Dealer with surreptitious intent, I now have to refrain from offering specific data to anyone.
Technically speaking, I don't deal in "speculation". I've a definitive and academic approach in finding answers to reasonable questions. As such, the conversion in this thread has a purpose for being here in the form it is presented. The presented conversion remains unaltered for good reasoning.
"speculation on the specifics" of westgl's conversion is fine here so long as the intention remains in keeping with the material list provided for it. The conversion, as presented, works as-is and always will.
You Moderate a sub-forum based on the carburetor in this conversion. Have you forgotten that?

It was he after all who started this thread.

True, it was. Should you care to read some pages back you will also see it abandoned by him as well. You should also note the origin of this thread from another, as I participated in that thread as well and know exactly where this one stems from. Would you care to hear from westgl? ...instead of me?
Need I explain that it is not always the Messenger of importance but the Message itself?

Anyone can make a serviceable assembly now with the type 4 plenum.

What is your point with this statement?
Why now? Why now when our motorcycles, the plenum, the carburetor and all other associated materials have been around since all were new?
Why is it only "now" that the conversion presented in this thread has become so popular? There is nothing new about this plenum. It has been on the market for decades.

Some tubing and a decent choice of carburetor.

"Some tubing..." Herein lye's an enormous problem that pervades most all previous conversion attempts. The problem arises when others downgrade the importance specific to delivery of the fuel charge and pass that view on to others with little more regard than a child would view a career.
The carburetor selected for this conversion is a decent choice. It is selected for best overall performance and its primary quality given is that of being NEW.
It is this carburetor that allows you to Moderate a sub-forum particular to single carburetor conversions for 4-cylinder GL's whose entire scope of existence has thus far been based around it.

Many already have. More still are in process of doing so.

Then this thread serves a purpose broader than the Forum it emanates from.

This use of off the shelf items is great for those that just want it simple and have it work.

...and this is the purpose of this thread with the parts list it has.

But even they want it to work "right" so why not discuss the variables?

What about this conversion does not work "right"? You've enough new posts (either real or manufactured) in your home Forum showing that it works as described.
You've one in particular praising the out-of-the-box nature of this carburetor.
Discussion of variables is fine so long as the discussion does not lead to changing the specific parts associated with this conversion.
Again, the conversion works as described for the majority who would use it.
For those that want or need deviation, another thread discussing their particular conversion wants/needs is best kept seperate and apart from this one.

The effects of given size runners is pertinent to the equation and can have a big impact on the performance.

"...the equation" Just what equation are you speaking of? Do you have a particular equation specific to a runner that you would like to share with us?
The equations required to successfully tune a intake tract for the performance I require are absurd in complexity. Do you have any idea the requirements involved? Any idea of the equipment and tools required to tests those equations once formulated from working theory to functional prototype? To get to the point of actual road testing any product is a paramount achievement no matter how small. The conversion presented in this thread is thoroughly tested and proved sound as described.
If performance alterations are sought after building it, those performance corrections will be found as a result. The intent of the conversion here as presented is to give all who want it a base which is understood and confirmed by all of those previous to him. If what anyone wants to do is alter their performance for whatever criteria they wish to find as a result, I suggest again that follow you guys over to Dan's CGW Forum where the practice is in full-swing. This thread is not the place for it.

Stock carbs are situated approximately 5" from the intake valves and the intake horns serve as plenum and runners.

They serve as what? Plenums or Runners? The two have distinct purposes requiring distinct mathematical principles defining one from the other. Take your pick as the two are not all-inclusive as one. It would certainly help you to know just what exactly the stock intake manifolds are and the intended purpose of their design. Would it help you to know that they are, in fact, venturi's? Is this the first you've heard of a factory intake manifold (or "elbow" as commonly termed) referred to as a venturi.

Now, served with this new information at your hands ...why would Honda Motor Company design their intake manifold to incorporate a venturi for fuel delivery?
Further ...what are the physical characteristics and exact dimensions of their "runner".
Even further ...why did they do that?
Ask yourself these questions and then find the answers. Finding those answers requires a set of means.
This is no plenum. It is a runner ad it is designed to be a runner contributing to the intake tract that it represents.

They are approximately 1 3/8" id.

...and?

Maintaining so large internal diameter and placing the carb almost 3 times distant. Maybe 4. Can only slow the charge which will increase throttle response time and reduce the force of the charge available when the intake opens.

It is good to know that your hot-rod books have given you this. We have the plenum we have. It is the distance away from the intake valves that it is. What is your plan in dealing with it? Do you have a better one that a newcomer can deal with effectively? The conversion in this thread deals with it quite effectively for anyone and everyone.

Which reduces the amount of fuel mix each cylinder receives and the power that charge will produce.

Are you assuming something based off of your id dimensioning? What have you concluded through road-testing? Anything?

Perhaps that is why shovelking's set up has good idle and throttle response?

Perhaps, yes.
"Good" idle and throttle response is subjective. Video speaks volumes. I've not seen his conversion in action and that would be the only representation I could draw factual conclusion from.
Can you present video of his bike while it running with his conversion?
I tend not to believe another's representation ...of another's conversion... when I find poor judgment enlisted from the onset of a conversation. If you say it is good, I'll take it as you saying it so.
The conversion in this thread provides for good idle and throttle response. That is why it is the conversion in this thread.
Actually, the conversion herein provides for excellent idle characteristics and superb throttle response.

Using the adapter raises the level of the carb in relation to the floor of the plenum which is a good thing as you've already stated.

I've never stated that it was a "good thing". Where did I say that? Have I ever said that?
What I've said of it is known in this thread; It WILL hinder off-idle throttle response.
My testing to know this is apparently the first of its kind. L
I've spoke previously of what I know. You find it incredulous. I'm honored.

It is my belief that centering the charge is also a good thing

Well, ok. It is not for me to challenge your belief systems.

so why do you state now.The only merit to the adapter is the ability for the carburetor to retain the electric choke.

It is not only "now" that I'm saying it, but it is apparently only now that you are hearing it.
"The only merit of the adapter is it ability to retain the electric choke ...and that merit comes with a price."
If one wants to retain the electric choke (that is not necessarily needed by the mass that would use the conversion) at the expense of off-idle throttle response, then more power to them.
Using the adapter in no way affects calibration of the carburetor.
However, it does affect signal strength response time negatively which translates directly to off-idle throttle response.
Once your understanding of the plenums functional properties associated with the manifold and its runners are clearly understood, you will likely understand what it is at work when adding volume to the plenum and how it correlates to time when applied to controlling the fuel circuits in that or any other carburetor.
A tertiary knowledge based from hot-rod book readings simply may not be enough.

 

[pdbro]

if the original poster abandons a thread, the thread is ideally supposed to stay with the original intent
the topic is GL1000/1100/1200 Single Carb Conversion 2 Barrel 32DFT Progressive Runs Excellent
with this first post http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2480162-post1.html

when/if a thread becomes a sticky, it can easily become a general thread, as this one has, rather than focused,

any point of contention in this thread can be resolved by starting another topic

it is mod/admins, who are in charge and responsible for their site, how it is run and what is on topic

otherwise you have a mixed bag free for all, where good info gets lost in a sea of drivel

you can have order, disorder, or a mixed bag of who knows what and then who cares

and no, this is not the captain & tennille show lol

more scc stuff here
http://okwada.blogspot.ca/

 

[slabghost]

building the Worlds Best Fire Trucks proves more important in my life than your questions here.

And your firetruck has no importance to anyone until there is a fire. It's good you enjoy your day job though.

What questions do you have of this particular conversion that is evading you?

these-
So what is a "closed" plenum? Let's say all four runners are hooked to pumps of equal draw. The carb is a hose pouring water in close to two runners. Each pump has a bucket at the outlet. Do you really think the two pumps furthest away away from the flow will fill as fast as the two closest?

You "port" tune the runners? How?
You've said that each must be exactly the same as the others yet the proximity of the carb to each runner is irrelevant. This makes no sense at all.

I don't recall you helping me achieve my goal in any way, then or up to now. I do believe that continued insistence for answers gives this thread more prominence in any light. *

I'm sorry I don't recall you asking my help.

I now have to refrain from offering specific data to anyone. *

Then what is the point of your posting at all?

The presented conversion remains unaltered for good reasoning. "speculation on the specifics" of westgl's conversion is fine here so long as the intention remains in keeping with the material list provided for it. The conversion, as presented, works as-is and always will. You Moderate a sub-forum based on the carburetor in this conversion. Have you forgotten that? *

This material list?

I have a Weber 32DFT 2bbl. progressive carb on a VW Type IV manifold using silicone rubber hose runners to the Oem GL1100 head stub Manifolds.

It Runs Excellent, and the engine revs. to 8K+RPM, Very Fast revving.

It runs so well, there is No jetting that needs to be done.

It Runs Great Right out of the Box.

I have done Absolutely No carb. tuning, other than set the Idle Speed screw to 1000- rpms for a great idle.

Thanks to CaptainMidnight85, for the carb. suggestion, and his help.

Update:
I have gone through 3 revisions so far, this thread will outline those changes, I will be working of revision #4 soon that uses S.S. Brushed and polished Grab bars like the Moen grab bars at Lowes & Home depot, these come out to a very reasonably priced intake tubes that look very professional.

The weber Carb from Tom is still running very well

Next I will build some venturi's

Currently I have been riding my Single carb Conversion and trying to get some MPG figures for my 83' GL1100.

My fuel economy figures are better than i though they would be if i stay on the primary barrel, but this carb is great cause you have a dual purpose carb all in one good MPG and a Hot Rod side too.

Note he's revised 3 times so far.
Or is it this material list?

The Carb. is a Weber 32DFT it is a 32/32mm Progressive carb

It works very Well in part due to a small Choked Venturi, 32x32mm throttle bores that are choked down to just 22mm each this speeds up the Fuel air charge, that combined with the long intake runners provide Great engine Torque, and More usable power than you ever thought possible.

We are using a VW Type IV alum. Manifold Plenum

Many people have used this many without success,

Until Now,

It is our winning combination, that just works very well.

We do not try to use a carb. that is Way, Way to big in either Air or Fuel delivery, that plus the rest of this system all provides a winning combination.

I removed the auto choke on my 32DFT. as the carb. is too big to fit between the frame for me comfortably with the auto choke on it.

There is a vacuum port under the auto choke, that needs to be covered/Plugged.

Revised a screw that is taken off the choke can be screwed into the vacuum port, to block it.

or

I made a small block off plate, a manual choke could be made, very easily.

I got rid of the oem inlet can fuel filter going into the carb. & put a 1/8" pipe thread 90degree brass fuel inlet fitting.

I took off the front solenoid, and put in a plug, and another plug in under the fuel inlet is a smog inlet another plug here.

I removed the oem Choke lever arm on throttle shaft.

I bought a uni-Link Kit.

The Uni-Link is what i used to set up my throttle cable, it Holds the stock Pull cable end, and does a pretty good reliable job, I am getting full throttle, at this point and still have more movement at my hand to go than the Carb. needs to go to full throttle at the carb.

From what I have read, & when I pulled that vac. unit apart, it looks like there is some adjustment in that advance unit, to advance the timing some.

I need to make a bracket for the cable Adjustment Hold.

I have a design sketched out, for the stock Cable adjustment Hold.

The stock cable may be too long, If that is the case I have another cable that is 4" shorter, it looks just like the 83' GL1100 cable only 4" shorter, i think it was for a CB750 but i will have to verify that I have what bike it was for on the cable.

Only problem is finding stuff in my new shop is tuff, a lot of stuff still in boxes after the move, but the new shop is HUGH!!!

My bike is a 83' GL1100 and has a Vacuum operated advance.

I am using the vacuum port front right to advance the timing

I am Contemplating adding heat to the manifold center section.

But i am going to try it without heat first.

Note that he is not using heat. He has altered the carb too hmmm
BTW I am not restricted to moderating any "one" forum or subforum so my skills need to cover a multitude of areas.

"Some tubing..." Herein lye's an enormous problem that pervades most all previous conversion attempts. The problem arises when others downgrade the importance specific to delivery of the fuel charge and pass that view on to others with little more regard than a child would view a career. * The carburetor selected for this conversion is a decent choice. It is selected for best overall performance and its primary quality given is that of being NEW. * It is this carburetor that allows you to Moderate a sub-forum particular to single carburetor conversions for 4-cylinder GL's whose entire scope of existence has thus far been based around it. *

So just what are you saying here? Westgl used rubber hose for runners as did joedrum before him. Both achieved good results. Others have used grab bar sections.CPVC, conduit, exhaust tubing. Even fence tubing also with good results. Some stayed close to stock carb ID some went with larger or smaller. Some required more tuning than others but all achieved good running bikes if they took the time to adjust the carb to their chosen materials.

"...the equation" Just what equation are you speaking of? Do you have a particular equation specific to a runner that you would like to share with us? The equations required to successfully tune a intake tract for the performance I require are absurd in complexity. Do you have any idea the requirements involved? Any idea of the equipment and tools required to tests those equations once formulated from working theory to functional prototype? To get to the point of actual road testing any product is a paramount achievement no matter how small. The conversion presented in this thread is thoroughly tested and proved sound as described. * If performance alterations are sought after building it, those performance corrections will be found as a result. The intent of the conversion here as presented is to give all who want it a base which is understood and confirmed by all of those previous to him. If what anyone wants to do is alter their performance for whatever criteria they wish to find as a result, I suggest again that follow you guys over to Dan's CGW Forum where the practice is in full-swing. This thread is not the place for it. *

Seriously? The equation is the whole assembly from the airfilter to the intake valves. Each and every piece affects the others. You are absolutely correct that Dan's forum is the place for goal oriented adjustment of the single carb builds.

They serve as what? Plenums or Runners? The two have distinct purposes requiring distinct mathematical principles defining one from the other. Take your pick as the two are not all-inclusive as one. It would certainly help you to know just what exactly the stock intake manifolds are and the intended purpose of their design. Would it help you to know that they are, in fact, venturi's? Is this the first you've heard of a factory intake manifold (or "elbow" as commonly termed) referred to as a venturi. Now, with this new information at your hands ...why would Honda Motor Company design their intake manifold to incorporate a venturi for fuel delivery? Further ...what are the physical characteristics and exact dimensions of their "runner". Even further ...why did they do that? Ask yourself these questions and then find the answers. Finding those answers requires a set of means. This is no plenum. It is a runner ad it is designed to be a runner contributing to the intake tract that it represents. *

So you really have less idea here than I do. Call them venturi's others may call them chokes or manifolds. Regardless of the terminology applied they fill the space between the carbs and intake at the head occupied by plenum and runners in a single carb build.

 

[CaptainMidnight85]

Thanks for your input.

I've posted the picture below for your reference.

 

[dcryder]

Hey Westgl did you ever finish the garage and your last version of the intake? Would like to know how both came out.

 

[CaptainMidnight85]

...the pictures do.
These show why we use the Empi plenum.


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[CaptainMidnight85]

...